So what mistakes or victories did you have this winter?

[Cali-wanna-b]

Spring isn't to far away!!! I am curious what successes or failures everyone experienced trying to over winter cold hardy palms this year. I did not have any palms in the ground this year. I do have an 8x10 greenhouse that over wintered most of my cold hardy palms. My average daytime temps inside the green house are 60F and the nightly lows are 40F. My coldest night was 18F at floor level inside the greenhouse with 33F at the ceiling.

What I learned.....

1. A 1500watt space heater is not big enough to keep temps above freezing when outside temps are 10F or lower. I had a 7 gal california fan and a 5 gallon mexican fan have their pots frozen for a brief period when our temps dipped to -4F. Lost all the fans, but the spears look healthy. Everything that was up off the floor did not suffer from the cold, except the beautiful Sabal minors and Butias Laaz sent me. The Sabals stems are still green so I am holding out hope for them.

2. I NEED TO KEEP MY HANDS OFF THE WATERING CAN!!!!! Almost all of my palms are showing signs of too much water. I completely killed my only needle palm by watering too much. The palms in my greenhouse are truely dormant and not growing at all, except my Trachycarpus 'bulgaria' and takils. The bulgarias sprouted in december and continue to grow at a very good rate. These suckers are very cold hardy! My takils grew, but at a much slower rate and are very sensitive to over watering. My 5 gal Sabal 'Riverside' also pushed out a new leaf over winter.

3. I need to come up with a better draining soil mix. I played around with several mixtures, but found that most stayed wet entirely too long. My best mix is 50% potting soil-50% vermiculite. This soil is very light and drains very fast. It makes moving milk crates full of tree pots much easier also.

[lucky1]

Hi Calli-wanna-b
Oh no, you lost a needle palm...how sad.

Re watering, my plants are inside a very cold building (barely heated) and I don't water them at all from November to February or March. But I don't get the sunshine through the top like you would in a greenhouse. I find vermiculite is like a sponge and holds water. Perlite makes for a very fast draining mix, very light pots. Barb

[Kansas]

Cali, thanks for the tip on the Floor vs raised in a greenhouse. That will help next fall.
Also, I personally have found that despite many folks talking about how great Perlite is, I have found that Vermiculate is the best thing since sliced bread.
I was out of Perlite one time and had a bag of Vermiculate that I had not opened because I didn't know how to use it. I took a chance and mixed 1/2 potting soil / Vermiculate. Those trees are all thriving and put out new spears over winter in the basement. I am a Vermiculate user now!!!

[Laaz]

Craig I'll set you up with some more Butia's . Give me a little time, got backed up when my truck spun a bearing & had to replace the motor....

[Cali-wanna-b]

Re watering, my plants are inside a very cold building (barely heated) and I don't water them at all from November to February or March. But I don't get the sunshine through the top like you would in a greenhouse. I find vermiculite is like a sponge and holds water. Perlite makes for a very fast draining mix, very light pots. Barb

Barb, I have not had the same problem with vermiculite. I have found it does retain more water than using a coarse sand aggregate, but not to the point where the plants suffer. Our winter air is very dry here in central Pennsylvania, maybe that has something to do with it? The way my green house is positioned it does not get much direct sun during december and january, which I don't feel is a big deal since nothing is really growing anyway. Next year I am going to do what you do and not water during the coldest part of the winter.

Cali, thanks for the tip on the Floor vs raised in a greenhouse. That will help next fall.

I have my greenhouse sitting on part of an exposed concrete slab which is why I think my floor temps got so low. Next year I am going to insulate the floor with 2" ridged foam board and see how that goes.

Craig I'll set you up with some more Butia's . Give me a little time, got backed up when my truck spun a bearing & had to replace the motor....

Todd, I broke a rod last fall in my truck. I found a rebuilt motor from Rhino engines online for $2,800.00. It took me and my buddy 2 days to get the engine in. I will never do that again!!!! At least I didn't have any parts left over when I was done....

[Wes North Van]

Don't give up on the needle.
If you can provide it as much heat as you can and it will produce some suckers hopefully. These are amazing palms.

[Wes North Van]

Winners - Another winter and my meyer lemons live on. My brahea armata doesn't even have a scratch on it, my large chamaerops humilis survives its fourth winter, all my trachycarpus species are doing great, all bananas are fine, pineapple guavas are rock solid in this climate, bamboos are fine, all yuccas are fine as is all the succelants, tree fern has some brown fronds but it still looks good, chamadorea radicalis and microspadix have about 10% leave burn but will be fine, my euc is fine but the lower leaves have turned brown and have fallen off. Kiwis are going on 10 years outside and they are rock solid here. cannas and hedychium are all fine. Needle palm is totally unscathed. So all in all almost everything is fine.

Losers - I have spear pull on my small chamaerops humilis, the verdict is out on the passion flower vine. It will probably regrow from the roots but all above ground growth is fried. This is the first time this has happened. My cordy has had three of the five trunks fall over. It will regrow from the ground but it was quite large and probably would of flowered this year. The flowers smell great by the way. I lost one of my new zealand flax. Not sure if it regrows from the ground or not. That is it for loses. Not that many considering this was a brutal winter for here.

[lucky1]

Hey cali, from what kansas said, I'll be buying vermiculite too...I think my stuff is TOO DRY in the winter, but I've never seen the point of watering stuff in a very cold environment when, as you say, nothing's growing anyway.
And since your greenhouse doesn't get much sun in winter, I bet watering is not called for very much.
Do you mist occasionally in winter? or have pots of water that provide humidity?
I hope your needle makes it.

Wes, thank goodness you had few losses. The winners...and there are lots, would make nice pictures here????? (hint)
You too cali...?
Barb

[Alchris]

I still don't know for sure about the rest of my plants, but the snow melted enough for me to see the top stems of my bamboo. Half of the leaves are green. It should make it.

Gains: 3 evergreen rhododendrons came through fine; my Fargesia murielaie bamboo should survive.

Losses: it is too early to tell for sure, But my wisteria was exposed for most of the winter and is now under water temporarily. It would take a miracle for the existing stems to survive. The root system might live to grow another day. 2 of the butterfly bushes are out of the snow and they look dead.

Too Early to tell: the rest of the Butterfly bushes, the Kolkwitzia, Yuccas, holly, pardancandas, belamcanda and one evergreen rhododendron are still completely covered by snow. I expect the holly, belamcanda and rhododendron to survive. The rest were all new last year.

But my bamboo is still alive. It was the one that I expected to have trouble with.

Allen

[lucky1]

Hold onto your horses, Allen, re the Buddleia (even tho' they were fairly young in the ground).
Buddleia always looks stone cold dead in March.
And when I cut mine down to the ground, it still looks dead, nothing green shows even on the cut stems. And then around the third week of April, early May, look out the buggers grow a foot a day!

Since your 3 Rhodos made it (under the snow), I bet your Butterfly Bushes will live even though they're not under snow. (they're tougher than rhodos).

I've got two ~15 year old Wisteria. They don't burst (even from the roots) until it's real warm (third wk of May usually).

Sounds like you've got a lot of successes...
Barb
PS - - pics???

[Alchris]

Barb;

I will post pics when there is something to show. The rhodos are still more than half under the snow and the top 1/3 of the bamboo is lying on top of the snow. All I have to show so far is 2 dead looking butterfly bushes and a wisteria, all buried in the mud.

I've got my fingers crossed. After tomorrow night the lows should stay above -5 C with the highs close to +5 C. I should have a lot of the snow gone by next weekend.

Allen

[macario]

Well I made more than a few mistakes this winter. My green house needs a fan to circulate the air better I noticed mold on the old leaves of my W. Filifera. Also I found out that one of my yucca isnt hardy enough to even experiment with it froze then wilted and died fast lol. Also my meyers lemon was indoors and for no reason I can explain it decided to die.

As far as victories, This was the first time I took very large banana plants and over wintered them in the basement. They came through solid this year not mushy like last year. Also my poncirus trifoliata " flying dragon " is alive and well spending its first winter outdoors. I experimented with 50% limestone gravel and 50% potting soil on most of my potted plants and my potted T. princeps and it has great drainage and they have done nothing but grow grow grow. Last year I more than a few plants died from root rot. This year not one plant with my experimental mix has rotted and all are growing very well. Also my yellow groove bamboo made it through this terrible winter with some fried leaves but looks great still.

[yuccaman]

My mistakes,

1, I did not put my rhododendron on the southwall and most of the winter it was getting
more shade and cold north west winds.

2, It was also exposed to the Ice storm but my other plants were covered.

3, I also did not cage it up so the rabbits could chew of its little twigs.

4, My palm in the basement was watered to much and its brown and
losing fans.

I did not plant any needle palms or bananas,trunked yuccas in the spring
because I was worried and see how this winter was like, well it was completly terrible.
I been hit by every type winter weather. Rain,Ice storms(8Hours),Snow 72CM,Ice pellets,hail,Cold snaps (Long ones)

[Cali-wanna-b]

Do you mist occasionally in winter? or have pots of water that provide humidity?
I hope your needle makes it.

Barb, I keep a large plastic garbage can full of water in my greenhouse. I use it for watering and humidity purposes. The prognosis for my little needle is not good, he might not make it through next week..... I will put him in my critical care unit and see if a sucker forms.

[Alchris]

My Yucca flacida Garland Gold made it. It's yellow where it is supposed to be, green where it is supposed to be and only brown in a few spots.

Now, if it warms up, I'll take those pictures. Right now it is -7 with a 15 mph wind, just too cold to be outside.

And, I can't chuckle about everyone that buys bedraggled mislabeled tropical plants from HD and Wally World. I am embarrassed to say that I am now the proud owner of a reasonably healthy $10.97 'yucca cane'.

Allen

[lucky1]

Allen, glad your yucca made it thru the winter. That's a good sign that your others might be ok too.
Man, $10.97 that's cheap! At that price you could have a whole row of them

You must be warming up soon...it was really mild here today; we'll send some over the mountains.
Does Edmonton get chinooks? or just Calgary?
Barb

[Barrie]

Chinooks are west coast salmon ... maybe in Alberta by courier.
Cheers, Barrie.

[Alchris]

We are too far from the mountains to get many chinooks voluntarily. If you are sending I sure won't look a gift chinook in the mouth.
If I had my choice I would take one of Barrie's Chinooks. I'd even dig my barbeque out of the snow bank to cook it.

Allen

[lucky1]

That's it then. Barrie'll send a Chinook and I'll send a Chinook.
Warm weather BBQ...
Barb

[Barrie]

Now I get it ! (not knowing what an Alberta chinook was). As you cross this great country, there are many terms and expressions that are peculiar to certain regions. Where do these weather "chinooks" originate?

Allen ... I take it you don't BBQ year round? hahaha. Won't be long now buddy!

Cheers, Barrie.

[Alchris]

Vancouver Island.

Just kidding. 'Chinook' is blackfoot for 'snow eater'. It starts with warm dry air at the surface in BC, usually in the Okanagan, and a westerly wind. The wind carries the warm dry air through mountain passes and it slides under the dry and colder Alberta air. The warm dry air literally sucks up the snow. You can tell a chinook is coming when there is a rainbow of gray cloud in the west. As the warm air gets closer, the area above the 'rainbow of cloud' becomes cloudy but the area below the rainbow stays clear. The Chinook can last anywhere from a few hours to about a day. I was in one when I was working in Banff and living in Canmore. The temperature went from -18 F to 40 F in a matter of hours and the snow cover dropped about a foot while the chinook blew through. Our snows are usually fluffy and dry so that a foot of snow doesn't contain much water. As soon as the chinook wind hits the cooler air and the snow, it starts getting wetter and colder. By the time that it gets well into Alberta, like Edmonton, it becomes a warm snow storm. There are several mountain passes big and straight enough that a decent sized chinook can get through.

The Pine Pass( McKenzie to Chetwyn ) lets Chinooks in as far as Dawson Creek and Grande Prairie. The Yellowhead Pass lets chinooks in as far as Whitecourt. Calgary gets their chinooks through the Rogers Pass and Lethbridge benefits from the Crowsnest Pass. Because Calgary is much closer to the mountains than the other places, it's chinooks are much stronger.

The chinooks that we got in Grande Prairie were much weaker and shorter, usually warming 15 to 20 degrees, reaching 33 F for a few hours and often accompanied by freezing rain.

We BBQed year round in Grande Prairie because the BBQ was on the deck, just outside the patio doors. I am building the patio so that we will be able to BBQ in the winter here. You haven't lived until you have stood outside in insulated pants and a parka with a big mug of hot coffee and Baileys clenched in your mitten while BBQing steaks. I should be set up for BBQing by this fall. So, come on over in January for a BBQ.

Allen

[PhilMusa]

Well for wins, I decided not to plant my Trachy F and Needle in the ground last year. This is a good thing as February was a horrible month as Yuccaman stated earlier. Though we didn't get as much ice as Trenton.

For loses, the Cavendish that I was overwintering in my cold cellar seems to have bit the dust. Up until a month ago it looked fine. Macario what method did you use to overwinter your large bananas?

[macario]

Philmusa I used a small fan that rotates back and forth over the bananas to keep the very dry.

[PALMETTOMAN]

All my trachy's, washy's, euros, butia's, euchy tree's, musa's, oleander's, yucca's, cordy's- garaged- pulled through with no problems..

My hardened off Chinese Fan Palm and Lady Palm came through almost unscathed @ a bottom out of -8C..

Losses-My coffee tree, gardenia, mango and rosemary bush all look rough having bottomed out at -8C..

Palmetrtoman z6-Ajax, On

[lucky1]

Barrie
Allen, great description of chinook formation, never knew all that. Thanks!
Re BBQ in winter cold, you left out only one thing...don't drop the BBQ tongs 'coz you have snow plants on and you can't bend to the floor! (c'est moi)

Philmusa and Palmettoman, man, Ontario's had a bad winter (except November when YOU were still in runners and shorts).
How unfortunate you lost those plants this winter, what a shame those were beauties I bet.
Could it be too soon to tell?
How big was the coffee tree?

[Alchris]

Barb;

c'est moi aussi. That is why I hook my tongs on the strings that my wife sews on my mittens.

Palmettoman;

I hope that most of them pull through.

Philmusa;

It's a pity to have it hang in that long and then give up on you.

Allen

[Alchris]

Barb;

c'est moi aussi. That is why I hook my tongs on the strings that my wife sews on my mittens.

Palmettoman;

I hope that most of them pull through.

Philmusa;

It's a pity to have it hang in that long and then give up on you.

Allen

[lucky1]

Allen,
...now that would be a picture!
Barb

[Barrie]

I would summarize this situation as a cumulative event, and not solely to blame on this season. Eucalyptus pulverulenta is notorious for it's crooked free form habit, and I've never seen this species of Eucalyptus grow upright. I wonder if I'd trimmed this low slung branch earlier in it's life that this might not have happened. Heavy wet snow broke this down low and now needs to be cut down. It'll shoot up from the stump but I wonder if the same thing will happen again.

A close shot of the damage.


An over all view of E. pulverulenta.



Cheers, Barrie.

[lucky1]

Oh Barrie that is a shame ...but can the section on the right (in pic), which is still somewhat upright, be saved by doing a clean cut with saw or pruners where the left section tore off? Some tree paint would keep insects out (and save sap).

Did it happen yesterday? We had a hell of a windstorm for about 2 hours Tuesday.

I know it's hard to cut that close to the ground but it's worth a try. I'd even try staking the surviving branch to a more vertical orientation. Anything to keep this beauty alive.

There's something to be said for keeping trees growing on a central leader. But as you suggest, it grows willy nilly no matter how you prune it.

Its crooked shape was half its charm, no doubt.

[Barrie]

Barb,
I don't think the first pic clearly shows the extent of the damage. The break is right through to the center of the trunk, so the only clear option is to cut it down. Even if I could save it, one thing you learn early in Eucalyptus cultivation is to never stake a tree. They are lazy trees and will rely on it forever.
This occured in November last fall and I'm only just sizing up the damage now. There's plenty of seed I collected from it that have now started growing.
I wonder if a floral shop could use the foliage?

Cheers, Barrie.

[nlafrance3]

Allen you are an inspiration for us all. You an me will work side by side to make Edmonton tropical. I figured I'd post all my victories considering it was probably impossible for me to lose with all my palms indoors this year. My trachy fort. has grown 3 large new fans over the winter and my butia cap. is working on a couple new ones. I noticed that when I brought in my trachy, it brought some bugs in with it and I should have sprayed it down but I didn't notice until recently and now its back outside as long as it doesn't go below -5 again this spring. I bought a small sago palm a little while ago also, I love the look of these things. Do they grow outside in the west coast? They take ages to grow.

This summer will be the biggest experiment of my life. I wanted to share with everyone the plants that I am attempting this year and lets hope we have another 5a or warmer winter. The ones in which I am planting and think can survive are:
Agave parryi, berri-magic holly, crimson queen red maple, opuntia fragilis, yucca filamentosa, glauca, harrimaniae, brevifolia, elata, faxoniana, pallida, rostrata, and thompsoniana. I won't plant any yuccas that aren't at least juvenile though because they seem to be much stronger with age. I'm looking for a good size trunk in the ones that do.

Ones in which I'm planting that I have little hope for probably are:
Cordyline red star, musa basjoo, needle palm, sabal minor, trachy fort, trachy takil, and washy rob. I am going to supply major extra protection for most of the ones that I don't think can survive especially for the washy. I'll probably mummy wrap it like the guy from Iowa did. I'm going to post pictures of all of this in April when I do the landscaping. I'll post new pictures of my palms that I have right now soon to show the progress. Sorry for the really long post. Cheers.

Nate

[Alchris]

Thanks Nate. I'll let you know when I hear from Kelowna Barrie as to what he can provide. Perhaps we can order from other suppliers together to save on shipping.

I look forward to seeing your landscaping project when it is finished.

Allen

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Nate and Allen try canadapalms.com for a variety of smaller palms. They do ship. Say Hi to Jody and tell him you are a member of palms north.
John

[Alchris]

Thanks John.

Allen

[lucky1]

Barrie it's good you've got seed, but still a shame to lose a beauty that size. Their leaves' spectacular colour really draw the eye in any landscape.

Nate, wow, what a job jar...so exciting! Can't wait to see your pics. I think your daily newspaper should feature you two fellows and what you're doing...maybe you'll get other Edmontonians encouraged to join in the palm etc. craze.

I'm curious (having never had plants winter outdoors)...when you "mummy wrap" and generally cover stuff to protect them, don't they suffer from lack of light? I meant to ask macario that but forgot (I think his 900 lb and 500 lb palms were covered, laying down, in the greenhouse).

It's finally raining...light rain all day
Ciao.
Barb

[Alchris]

My Holly, I. meservea China Girl/Boy, came through with flying colors as did the Yucca filamentosa Golden Sword and the remaining Rhododendrons, Rampao and Helikki.

My cacti look rougher than normal. that is probably due to snow cover from November til now.

Now to wait out the freeze coming April 2nd and 3rd and hope that nothing further dies.

Allen

[lucky1]

Yup, it's nice during the day but cold at night.
Long range sounds like no change right through to April 4th...I'm not putting the longjohns away yet. Brrrrr.
But then again, I love heat!

Barb

[cedardave]

Im new here, but I shall chime in with my success and failures. I had reasonably good success wih 4 queen palms, single christmas palm. I way overwatered a 3 truncked pot of christmas palm and lost 1 of the three trunks...bummer. New additions this winter included several king, purple king, a pink Dypsis ,and a bunch of cattail palms most recently . Mexican fan palms did little but are still alive awaiting placement back in the sun and heat. I started california fan, true date, medjool date, ponytail palms as well as musa ensente and castor bean. I cant wait until its warm enough out to get em all out into the yard....

[lucky1]

Hey Cedardave from Winnipeg...welcome.

Can you post some pics of your palms?
Barb