Palm "antifreeze"

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:11 pm

I'm in the final stages of developing a palm tree "antifreeze". I quietly started this project several months back as I have always wanted to increase a palm tree's cold hardiness. In order to do this, you need to perform some genetic modification on the palm tree to survive severe freezes or prevent freeze damage altogether.

See, it's not the cold that does a palm in -- it's the freeze damage associated with the cold. When water in the plant tissue freezes and turns into ice crystals, these crystals stab through the cell wall and rupture it. The plant "bleeds out" and effectively dies. If one could figure out how to prevent any freezing in the tissues -- you have instant success.

I had a few obstacles to overcome in developing this "antifreeze".

1. It had to be mainly water, as plants need water to survive.
2. The "additives" had to reduce the freezing point of water sufficiently -- I was shooting for -40F or so.
3. It had to be 100% non-toxic to the plant.
4. It had to be inexpensive to produce as you will be applying it frequently all winter.

So after much trial and error, I finally developed a promising product a few weeks back. I purchased a cheap pygmy date palm from a local garden center and thoroughly saturated the root zone with my "antifreeze". I also applied it to all the leaves in foliar spray form. I then set the tree in my greenhouse overnight to soak up the "antifreeze" into its vascular system.

Well, results so far. The tree has been outside for the last 72 hours and has experienced temperatures down to 20 degrees.

NO DAMAGE THUS FAR. Soil is moist and workable, tissues are pliable and it's still green.

Colder temperatures follow early next week, so I'm very excited to see what happens.

Why did I pick pygmy date palm? Well, because I didn't figure out the perfect "antifreeze" til late in the winter. It's also a cheap palm with not much cold hardiness -- perfect for testing here in March. Ideally, I want to try this on some windmill palms through an ENTIRE winter and see what happens, as this is the direction I'd like to market the product.

With this "antifreeze", it will allow zone 4 to 5 hardy windmill palms...EASY.

Drawbacks? Frequent application to the root zone throughout winter. Further testing will reveal if the palms need root zone applications and foliar spray, just root zone applications or just foliar spray applications.

I think we are still a year or two out from final conclusions, but this looks very exciting!

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:12 pm

Pygmy date palm - outside 72 hours after root zone soak and foliar spray of "antifreeze".

Low last night was 22.2F. Current temp is 27.0F.

Two pics.

InsanePalmNinja · Post by **InsanePalmNinja** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:24 pm

Were can I get.... I tryed freez pru it did ok

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Tim, oh man, I hope you got it!
Wouldn't that be fabulous?

Frequent application to the root zone throughout winter.

So vertical PVC pipes in the ground to "accept" the antifreeze?
But what keeps the ground from freezing solid once the roots have taken the solution up?
How frequent applications? Surely, not daily.

No wrap for the PDP?

This I gotta see...excited to hear more.
Good for you for thinking outside the box.

Barb

PS--it had better not be cat-pee

turtile · Post by **turtile** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:49 pm

The root zone should be much more effective than foliar spray. The only problem would be in ground palms since the roots are widely spread out and the ground is harder to saturate evenly.

I'm currently working on plant protection spray that I hope will protect plants from oxidative damage during the winter.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Gettin' more interesting around here...

let us know your progress please.

Barb

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:24 pm

Down to 26F out. Forecast for rest of tonight:

Overnight: Mostly cloudy, with a low around 16. North wind 5 to 10 mph.

If I'm correct, that should outright kill a PDP. Anxious to see what it looks like in morning as this will be the coldest temperature yet in this experiment.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:45 pm

Anxious to see what it looks like in morning

Me too...a photo at 3 pm should be proof.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:28 am

Just a heads up Tim

My PDP took weeks in the lower 30s and 20s. IT didnt show much damage at all - until I brought it inside. It then ended up in slow decline. Its alive though!

Just be aware most damage doesnt show till after it warms back up (of course, if its -20C out, youll have bleach blond palm leaves anyways). The frost preserves the cells, and when they thaw, that is when they explode damaging the plant. Also, on top of that damage, you have to watch out for wind dehydrating the leaves.

Not saying what you did wont work, just something to keep in mind. I thought my PDP survived the weeks out in the cold and it did, with loosing all its leaves and not pushing spears for 4 months..... THe lowest temp I remember it getting hit by was -7C, multiple times so thats roughly 26F

miketropic · Post by **miketropic** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:47 am

Good luck with it, it could really open up the door to ALOT more palms for our northern zones..Im sure some of the less hardy would still have to be protected but this could make it so much easier..where say a washy needs protection and heat it might be possible to just fleece it and have little to no damage if your solution works. can't wait to find out..glad were getting in on the ground floor

that way we never have to worry about getting supply

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:41 pm

Here's an update on my antifreeze experiment with a pygmy date palm.

Palm was outside in subfreezing conditions for approximately 96 hours with the minimum recorded temperature of 12 degrees F. After this period (Sunday), I moved it into my greenhouse which varies between 60 degrees F and 85 degrees F.

Here is how it looks tonight.

Closeup.

Palm is green, spear will not pull.

I'm now moving on to my next phase of the experiment. I bought 3 cavendish bananas from the local garden center today. We'll call them Exhibit "A", "B" and "C". Exhibit "A" received just water. Exhibit "B" received a root zone soak of my "antifreeze" (which I modified slightly since the PDP test). Exhibit "C" received a root zone soak of my "antifreeze" along with a thorough foliar saturation.

Here is a picture of all three just before I put them outside in 14 degree F temperatures.

I will be posting an update of these as soon as I have the results.

JB · Post by JB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:40 am

I am having great success with my mix. I've tested it out on grass the past 3 winters in Zone 7 here on Long Island and have had amazing results. The grass is green and grows throughout the winter. I'm approaching it from a different angle than you. I'm focusing on the palm's metabolic rate to increase it's hardiness...in other words, keeping the metabolic rate high will allow the palm to generate it's own protective heat among other internal benefits of stimulated growth. See pics below.

Taken Early Feb. 2013

Taken Mid March 2013

It took awhile to break through the roots with a spade but here is a patch I cut out to show its thickness

Was able to start Palm Trials at the end of this winter and planted Majesties. They are doing great after being exposed to snow, frost, high winds(which actually snapped some fronds) and temp lows from 27-32 degrees. Pic taken March 3.23.13

Taken a couple of days ago

Nice 1 foot high spear

Good Luck. Keep moving forward and I would be happy to buy your product if you are successful. The most important thing is that somebody-be it me, you or anybody, MUST succeed.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:35 pm

Welcome to Palms North, JB.

Wow, from your photos, I'd say sign me up.

You guy(s) have the elixir

I'm dying to find out what it is...alcohol?

sugar?

Nice tests you've done...and a Majesty has got to be one of the finicky-est palms there is.

Barb

JB · Post by JB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:20 pm

No alcohol...although I wont discount that it may add some value. It may also be created by the palms itself from synthesizing natural sugars. Natural sugars definitely as it provides energy to the cells. I have a couple of active ingredients that play a key role. All I can say at this point, most is it is common sense some of it you'd have to be a diehard nutritionist to know. I used grass as an initial test subject because palms and grass are both Monocots. I figure they would/could respond closely-then again, who knows. The important thing here is that somebody succeeds so we can all benefit. I'm not going to front or lie and say that my motivation isn't driven by profit, because it is-but not from developing and selling this formula, that's a side benefit to me. I'm starting up a Palm tree business in Long Island, NY and having something like this could really help out my business overall.

I'm rooting for everybody and anybody willing to try and succeed through constant failure

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:52 pm

grass as an initial test subject because palms and grass are both Monocots

That's what impressed me right off the bat.

And I wasn't REALLY asking for the secret...just brain thoughts leaking onto my keyboard

diehard nutritionist to know

Well we know it's not nicotine...

Hey, if/when this flies, JB, you won't have to start a Palm Business in NY.
You can buy your own tropical island...where it doesn't freeze.

Look forward to hearing/seeing more.

Barb

JB · Post by JB » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:03 pm

The people I've met via sites like this and Gardenweb are so wonderfully kind, positive and supportive. It's a wonderful cyber community to be involved with!
I will keep you in the loop on my progress...history tells me that there are still many failures and adjustments to make before/if I come up with a solid platform. Problem with palms in my limited experience is that they differ from species to species and the one size fits all mentality is more of a pipe-dream than reality. Different zones, different humidity, different soil types...they truly are the spoiled princesses of the tree world. Everything has to be "just so" with most of them. Well, thanks to all these years with my Wife and Daughter, I'm up for the challenge cause I'm using to pleasing my princesses!

What I could use is a palm that acts like my son...feed it, give it something to drink and watch it grow!!!!

chadec · Post by **chadec** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:28 pm

Welcome aboard JB. Hope someone hear gets this anti-freeze right. Would love to grow some bottle palms outside.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:31 pm

they differ from species to species and the one size fits all mentality is more of a pipe-dream than reality.

That's why palms are both satisfying and infuriating to grow.

But if your product can significantly lower the temp at which palms succumb to cold--even if it doesn't work for Cyrtostachis, for example

--that'd allow us to grow at least 3 more palms outdoors than at present. Maybe 4.

I'd be happy as a clam in that case.
Already putting aside my CIDP and Jubaea (with the Waggies and Princeps.)

Delightful conversation, JB, thank you!

Barb

JB · Post by JB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:17 am

Hey Chad! Hey Barb!

Didn't know about this site, but it seems a lot of the same people from GardenWeb are on here as well. Erik is sending me a Mule to run tests on and I hope it is successful because they sure are nice. I'm ordering a CIDP, Butia C & E, Med Fan, Wash. Filifera, Mexica Fan and a Phoenix Sly as well for test subjects. So by next winter, I will have a broad spectrum of subjects from different known Zone 8 species to test in a Zone 7 platform. The only variable that I cant control is humidity/moisture which really isn't fair when comparing the same rated zones in different locations across North America. Phoenixes do well in the desert because it is dry...moisture seems to be the main culprit in determining a palms survival. I have a feeling that if my mix works, it may need to be used in conjunction with desiccants (ie WiltPruf) and copper fungicide for the crown. I think I'm on to something-the question is, what is the right combo of treatments depending on the particular species.

As history has proven time and time again, the answer is usually right under our noses-provided by Mother Nature. Who would have ever thought that rotting bread would lead to the single most largest extension of Human Life Expectancy to date. Life is amazing.

chadec · Post by **chadec** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:27 am

With our wet winters here on the east coast I definitely believe your phoenixs and chammys will need an umbrella to cover the crown.

JB · Post by JB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:08 am

Chad...you just hit upon what I think is the biggest issue. The Mid-Atlantic region of which you reside in, is exposed to a ton of moisture be it coming up from the South or across from the West. Here in NY, we are dominated more by the Arctic express coming down from Canada and that is usually a colder drier air. Your Southern moisture is usually package with warm air which remains warm. Many times we are spared from that because of Canadian Highs that get parked off the NE Coast that wind up pushing the system out into the Atlantic. That same High, when in place, also pushes wet systems coming from the West, South of us. Of course all that may change with these new weather patterns we have been experiencing over the past couple of years. Crown health I bet is a major concern in your area.

miketropic · Post by **miketropic** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:26 pm

well at the worst JB if the formula works 99% I wouldn't mind just putting a fleece bag over them to keep them semi dry. thats way better than some of the extreme lengths we go to now trying to keep them alive

JB · Post by JB » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:48 pm

I really think-based on the feedback that I have gotten from growers, the copper fungicide would work well enough if the rest of the palm is protected by a formula that covers everything else.

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Whoa amazing!

JB · Post by JB » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:56 am

Off the charts

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:47 am

You would think Wxman would be interested in what your doing-

JB · Post by JB » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:27 am

I believe it was he who contacted me on GardenWeb. He offered his help testing my formula because he had access to a walk-in freezer. I was grateful for his offer but I told him that you can make my formula without a specific machine used in Labs. The one I own costs $2000.00. So it really wasn't feasible. I hope his trials go well because even though my results are successful with grass, there is no guaranty that I will get the same results with palms...I hope I do-but until it happens, I'm just a Dude who needs to mow his lawn

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:04 am

You would think Wxman would be interested

Yeah...

The silence is odd.

JB, great new pics of the grass...you're definitely onto something there.
And lawnmower companies will love you.

Barb

JB · Post by JB » Wed May 01, 2013 9:00 am

I forgot I posted on this site...my posts can be found on Gardenweb.

The Majesties:
3 weeks ago, one of my Gardener's helpers threw powdered weed killer all over the grass and Majesties. It had zero effect on the grass but the Majesties turned yellow with in a week. I left them alone to see if any further treatments could revive them. I'm happy to report that they are pushing out new green spears.

The Grass:
Words can't describe what it looks like so I might as well just show the pictures....

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed May 01, 2013 1:56 pm

Great photos, JB.

Incredible news...

PalmsNorth.com

Palm "antifreeze"

Palm "antifreeze"

Good Luck Wxman. A win for you is a win for all.

Thanks Barb

Thanks Barb

Thanks Guys!

That's what the copper fungicide is for.

Hey Mike!

2 New Pics of the grass....

Howdy Jim!

Update....