Fairfax, Virginia (Wash DC area) palms

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:08 pm

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:21 pm

Those look great!
Does he have to protect them in any way?
I especially like the Sabal minor. Given his source, I may have a younger relative as the freebie I got with my S. "Louisiana."
--Erik

Cameron_z6a_N.S. · Post by **Cameron_z6a_N.S.** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:08 pm

Nice shots, Tim! You should also post the giant rostrata on this board

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:42 am

Wow, those palms look really really happy. Are the trachys growing in part shade? Theres no need to protect there right?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:57 am

Love the bluish cast on fronds.

...and that Sabal minor with seeds.
I have one but it hasn't put on any growth in 2 years.

Please ask your brother 2 things:
1. how old is it/how long planted?
2. what's his "trick" with minors (he's obviously doing something very right).
(i.e. acid or alkaline soil? what type of fertilizer? regular or infrequent watering?)

Barb

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:58 am

I think he practices Santaria

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:59 am

Very nice selection,looks like all the Sabals/Needles are well acclimated
and in no need of protection.

Love the blue/white undersides on the Trachy!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:18 am

Tim,

What a nice looking bunch of palms. Is that blueish trachy one of the nanitals from you? And how about the others? The Louisianas sure look like they got a hold on there spot now, they must have been really little when they crapped out years ago.

Hope you had a nice visit.

Bill

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:22 am

Nice palms!

Confirmation that I am not the only palm eccentric in this region.

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:43 pm

Hi Erik,

the trachys will typically die unless moisture protected. The survivors were moisture protected and are now thriving. Several Trachies died last winter with no protection.

Hi Cameron,

the Yucca rostrata photos were posted on this board under the Yucca section.

Canadianplant,

the S. minors and needles don't need protection. The Trachys tend to die with excess moisture/cold in his area. The Trachies not protected are dead. And yes, those Trachies do get at least 1/2 shade in summer.

Hi Barb,

I think I gave him the S. minor plants (small liners) back in 2007. Nice growth rate! I also gave him some Trachies and needles. The needles have survived. Most of the Trachies have died but a few are still kick'n since he protected them. Regarding the growth rate.......he doesn't do much at all. Northern Virginia is very humid and warm in summer .................I'm sure this helps. They also have a clay type soil......much different than our soil type.

Hi Jim,

Yes, nice blue underside! Trachys are protected or they die.

Hi Bill,

I forget what that blue underside Trachy is.......I don't think it was my nanital since he had two.......I think I gave him one????? Those Sabals are minors from Northeast Texas. I did give him a S. louisiana but this dies to the ground every winter but is still alive.

Hi Jack,

Yes, it' nice to see palms down there......I wish I Could have seen the monkey puzzle in gEORGETOWN.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:56 pm

Thanks for the info ... good to know.
Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:09 pm

Tim,
thanks. Lots of good info. there.
Trachy--OK, I get it. Moisture protection. Follow up: how?
Sabal "Louisiana": oh, no!

Given your source for the S. minor "NE Texas Ecotype" I am pretty sure my S. Louisiana is the same. Amazing Gardens, right? Bryan and/or Don in OKC? Any advice for me on how to preserve the leaves through winter?
--Erik

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:26 pm

Hi Erik,

my brother constructs a mini greenhouse over the Trachy's (6 mil over top of Trachy so rain will not get into leaf crown).

Sabal louisiana is not fully hardy in my brothers climate. It typically dies to ground each winter but regrows.....it looked OK when I was there. You can see it next to the gate in the photo below (in the back of the photo near gate)........not too bad looking! If they get a warmer than normal winter it may not die and will take off!! And yes, the seedlings for both the minor and louisiana were from Don of OKC back in 2001.
<img src=http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/ ... AM0732.jpg>

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Tim,
thank you very much. I bought a big S. "Louisiana" (roots filled a 30 gallon trash can) that had a small NE Texas S. minor in there in September from Bryan/Don. I was thinking wind protection and mulch would be sufficient, but we definitely get colder than the D.C. area. Maybe I need to find a way to run a long extension cord to it to give some electric heat. I am glad to know this now vs. in January.
I think Trachy can take my cold, but I agree about trying to keep water out of the crown. I'll get to work on that. So far I have only done that for the two Waggy (just 'cause I value them more) and the smallest T. fortunei but I'll get cracking on the other 2 T. fortunei.
You say his needle palms need no protection at all? Good news. I planted my first three last Spring. I'll give them some protection, but ultimately I want at least some palms that need no protection at all.

Any more tips?
--Erik

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:21 am

Hi Erik,

My brother has tried lots of palms (mostly smaller in size 1 to 5 gallon to start with....even smaller 2yr old liners). The only palms which survived with no deaths and no protection were Sabal minor and Needle palm. Everything else has issues, needs protection or is dead. I know he killed Sabal ursana (spelling?) but this did OK for a couple years. I'm pretty sure I have him some Butias too which died 1st winter.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:29 am

Well needle palms natural habitat is up the eastern seaboard to about ohio is it not? If thats the case then no wonder why it has no problems there.

Sabal minor has natural strands in North Carolina as well ( in cape hatteras, an island off the coast). ISnt it plausable that there are, or were at one point sabal minor is virginia naturaly??

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:51 am

Tim,
thanks. I kind of enjoy the protection thing, but there are limits. I happen to like dwarf palmettos and needle palms and so don't mind getting more of them. However, I will try to run some electric heat to the S. "Louisiana" based on your post.
Our source, Amazing Gardens, offers no protection at all to his. However, he did lose some this past winter, along with most of his Trachy. So, I guess the lesson is that even if they make it through a normal winter, eventually a cold one will come along.
This is supposed to be a warmer than usual winter for me, but even in a warm winter we can have a brief very cold spell.
--Erik

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:20 pm

TimMAz6 wrote:Hi Erik,

My brother has tried lots of palms (mostly smaller in size 1 to 5 gallon to start with....even smaller 2yr old liners). The only palms which survived with no deaths and no protection were Sabal minor and Needle palm. Everything else has issues, needs protection or is dead. I know he killed Sabal ursana (spelling?) but this did OK for a couple years. I'm pretty sure I have him some Butias too which died 1st winter.

How long before he tried them without protection? Three of my four Trachys were previously planted at my parents' house in DC as I was then an apartment dweller but interested in Palms none the less. I left them unprotected the last couple of winters before I dug them up and brought them to Rancho Lord. They did ok. I am once again doing the three year protection plan with them because the transplanting was very rough on them.

Like your bro, I give the Needles and Sabals a good layer of mulch and leave it at that. Butia and Meds, however, will always be in shields up mode during the winter.

Too bad you missed the Monkey Puzzle.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:16 pm

Jesse

Sabals grow inland as far north as northeast Oklahoma/northern Arkansas
rumored to be in southern Missouri-I doubt that though.

To my knowledge Needle palms are not found naturally outside Alabama,
Florida, Georgia, Mississippi and South Carolina.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:34 pm

[quote="hardyjim"]Jesse

Sabals grow inland as far north as northeast Oklahoma/northern Arkansas
rumored to be in southern Missouri-I doubt that though.

To my knowledge Needle palms are not found naturally outside Alabama,
Florida, Georgia, Mississippi and South Carolina.[/quote]

Jim,
I wish! The natural range of Sabal minor only gets to the extreme SE corner of Oklahoma, where Alligator is also found. Similarly in southern Arkansas. Up here in NE Oklahoma, we have natural populations of Acer sacharum--a very different sort of plant.
--Erik
Source: State biosurvey fact sheet on Sabal minor:
http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/shrub/sami8.htm

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:04 pm

Then what about the " cape hatteras" seed, from north carolina?

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:23 pm

At 35 oN, Cape Hatteras NC is the same latitude as me and a bit north of mccurtain county Oklahoma (33 oN).
And of course much milder with the Gulf Stream!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:18 pm

Needle palms are not found naturally outside....

Needle palms would be growing over most, if not all, of the U.S. if their "seed spreader" -- the giant sloth -- hadn't been hunted to extinction.
For anyone who hasn't read about it:
http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Coldhard ... rious.html

Barb

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:49 am

wow..... that is cool.

WEll, now theres a more efficiant seed spreader... man and his insatiable appitite for gardening!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:37 am

I'm pretty sure Gary Hollar told me last year they found some sabal minors in So. Virginia on some island. Like Erik said it's much more temperate then Oklahoma's natives thanks to the Ocean.

Bill

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:18 am

Jack,

my brother was having lots of problems with spear pull with trachys. The ones which are moisture protected sail through winter with no problem. Perhaps you started with larger specimens? Also, my brother says the city temps are far warmer than where he lives in Fairfax. Also, his palms not receive much sun in winter.....not planted in warm microclimates.

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:47 pm

TimMAz6 wrote:Jack,

my brother was having lots of problems with spear pull with trachys. The ones which are moisture protected sail through winter with no problem. Perhaps you started with larger specimens? Also, my brother says the city temps are far warmer than where he lives in Fairfax. Also, his palms not receive much sun in winter.....not planted in warm microclimates.

Mine were pretty small when planted and I protected them for at least 5 years (I have to star keeping a journal...). They did a couple of winters unprotected after having grown a bit.

All things being equal, it would be better to protect them forever. But I would eventually like my Trachys to go unprotected. I suppose they will always take a beating. No doubt part of the reason your bro's palms look so good is that he has protected them very well.

He is right about the city temps. I am closer to the city than he is, so maybe I benefit from the effect. When mine were first planted, they were in they city proper.

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:52 pm

BILL MA wrote:I'm pretty sure Gary Hollar told me last year they found some sabal minors in So. Virginia on some island. Like Erik said it's much more temperate then Oklahoma's natives thanks to the Ocean.

Bill

I would not doubt it. That small corner of Virginia is virtually subtropical or at least more like coastal North Carolina. It would not take much for some Sabal seeds to have ended up there. I think I have even seen some photos from a preserve on the mainland with Sabals growing in the woods.

Funny thing though. I spent time every summer and some Thanksgivings on the Outer Banks in North Carolina. Never saw a palm except for some pathetic Palmettos somebody had sloppily planted.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:38 am

There's quiet a bit of palms out there now. I've seen them posted on another site, at least it seemed like a lot, I've never been there personally though. Always wanted to

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:30 am

TerdalFarm wrote:
hardyjim wrote:Jesse

Sabals grow inland as far north as northeast Oklahoma/northern Arkansas
rumored to be in southern Missouri-I doubt that though.

To my knowledge Needle palms are not found naturally outside Alabama,
Florida, Georgia, Mississippi and South Carolina.
Jim,
I wish! The natural range of Sabal minor only gets to the extreme SE corner of Oklahoma, where Alligator is also found. Similarly in southern Arkansas. Up here in NE Oklahoma, we have natural populations of Acer sacharum--a very different sort of plant.
--Erik
Source: State biosurvey fact sheet on Sabal minor:
http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/shrub/sami8.htm

Oops!

meant to say southeast Oklahoma-

http://www.amazinggardens.com/oklahoma.html

Not sure where I read the accounts of S.minor being found in northern Arkansas
and southern Missouri,it does seem unlikely(as hell)because their habitat shots
are mostly lowland areas(dry to swampy)which does not fit the description
of northern Ark or southern Mo!

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:44 am

On my "to do" list is a road trip down to see wild Sabal minor "McCurtain" and collect seed. That biosurvey website has GPS coordinates that should get me to the right spot.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:50 am

Erik,
Didn't you say before that it was meth cooker land out there? Be careful if you go out there! Grab me some if you do

Bill

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:52 am

Jim,
I remember someone telling me once that Warren, Arkansas had a pretty good clump of minors, but that's south Arkansas in the swamps like you described.

Bill

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:24 am

I spent last evening with a professional horticulturist/arborist and he wants to go along with me. We figure winter is the time to do it as the absence of leaves on the deciduous trees/shrubs will make the Sabal easier to spot.
Buried deep in the state biosurvey data sets are GPS coordinates

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:11 am

Just be careful of all that Meth out there and don't bring Bill any!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:44 am

IF theres meth, theres probably that mischieveous 5-9 lobed green plant as well..... watch for snare traps and bear traps.... ( I wish i was joking... LOL). Take lots of pics please

Jim FYI... -24C here tonight, hope it isnt getting that cold down there

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:07 am

Jeez, Erik, be careful.
Is the risk worth it?

Barb

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:07 am

I think it is but thats just me lol

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:06 pm

It's most likely not all that bad, but times are tough! Erik's the one who said there were tweekers down there in a past post, like my cops reference

Right Erik???

Bill

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:29 pm

That's the reputation of McCurtain County. Don't know if it is true.
I don't want to seem glib, but having guns pointed at you by bad guys comes with the profession.
Still much safer than being a police officer, let alone serving in the military.