heres my winter protection plan

cedardave · Post by **cedardave** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:54 pm

I have a 4 foot butia capitata, An 8 foot tall bismarkia, 4 foot european fan palm, and 2 windmill palms. In Winnipeg it can reach -40 celcius in the winter for weeks at a time., so the ground freezes hard and deep.These plants are all to big to bring indoors this year so heres what Ive done so far.I have wrapped around each root ball 1 1/2 inch pipe. Each plants root ball is also enclosed underground with foam insulation...including under the root ball so the frost cant creep in. The pipe loops somewhere around 250 feet long underground in total. Now heres the best part. The pipes are connected to 5 kilowatt swimmingpool heater and pumped with a 3/4 horsepower pool pump.I will be able to control soil temps anywhere from freezing(obviously not) to 109 degrees. I will be constructing an insulated building around these plants and may include a window or skylight in the top. I plan on having several buckets of water in the buildings to work both as a heat sinks and for some humidity.I dont want to burn the leaves though, so im not sure about the skylight/window idea just yet. My theory is the soil will keep from freezing and the heat should be enough to keep the inside of the building warm as well. So far the heating unit is all done. so any input or advise??

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:16 pm

You're my hero!
Can you share some photos? I'm having trouble picturing this all.
--Erik

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:41 am

Wow.

You may still want to get a 'thermo cube' hooked up to a space heater for the top... -40C is pretty cold.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:33 am

Paul Ont wrote:Wow.

You may still want to get a 'thermo cube' hooked up to a space heater for the top... -40C is pretty cold.

I agree unless you have a foot of insulation.

Would love to see some pics-heating the soil is the way to go as Bill has shown!

cedardave · Post by **cedardave** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:04 am

the insulation below ground goes down 2 feet and sits on another piece of insulation at the bottom. In 3 of the plants they are sitting on another 6-8 inches of the foam insulation to avoid water collecting at the base of the roots. I started it up yesterday where the soil temps sat at 50 degrees and although there is obviously no freeze yet, I have gotten the soil temp up to 80 degrees in most spots, with 65 degrees in others. I suspect it will take a while to balance the temps in all the areas. The heater is putting out temps of about 105 degrees and the pipes are radiating the heat nicely.
The above ground buildings are going up this weekend..but will not be completely enclosed until it gets a little cooler here. They will consist of a 2by4 frame with r20 insulation , plywood on the outside and vapor barrier inside. There will be a couple barrels of water inside to help stabalize the air temps as well as straw packed around the plants. the buildings will sit just below grade on styrofoam insulation to avoid and outside air creeping in.I am hoping the heat radiating from the pipes will be enough to keep the buildings warm. I have one link of piping at ground level to facilate the above ground heating.I hope not to have to suppliment that with a heater I may put a skylight on to allow some light and daytime solar heating. Im not really computer savy, but will and post some pictures later .

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:10 am

Palms in Winnipeg!! That's pretty cool.. I'm just waiting now till we get our first member from the North West Territoies or Nunavut!! Check out my palm protection from last year. Obviously we don't get as cold as Winnipeg but have a look..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmFusf6vw9Q

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:15 am

Yes, very, very cool. Just think: a tall Bismarckia in Winnipeg! Love it.
Do watch Scotty's video, and check out photos of protection by Barb (interior BC) and Bill (MA, USA).

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:44 am

For reference, here are the locations of our 'coldest' posters:

Winnipeg (record -45C; USDA zone 3a?):
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/ ... StnId=3698&

Edmonton (record -48C; USDA zone 3a?):
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/ ... StnId=1867&

Calgary (record -45C; USDA zone 3b?):
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/ ... StnId=2205&

Thunder Bay (record -41.1C; USDA zone 3b?):
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/ ... StnId=4055&

Makes me feel downright tropical!
Kingston (record -34C; USDA zone 5a; but my location is colder)
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/ ... StnId=4300&

Here's a question, which one would take the cake as the coldest poster? How would we measure it, coldest temperature? Average winter temperature? Average winter minimum temperature? Average yearly high/low?

It is inspirational for us 'old-hands' to see such enthusiasm, AND, in my case, I am glad to see that zone denial is not zone exaggeration in this case!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:09 pm

How about total days below freezing high temps(32F)
below 20F for highs
below 10
below 0(F)

11 days with 0(F) or below/low temps/lowest was -12(F)

Let's look at last winter here.
Starting Dec 1 2009-March 20th
33F/or less highs total-70
20F or less highs total-12
10F or less highs total-3
24 days above freezing(12 were in March!)
so half of those 24 days were in March after the snow melted.
and hows this for a turnaround?

Starting May 22-78 days in a row 80F or warmer and 50 days 90F or warmer!

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Jim, thats a pretty good way of breaking down a winter, temperature wise. Kind of puts things into perspective.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:02 pm

Thanks

I am hoping we are nowhere near any of those numbers this year!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Thanks for the props Erik, but pretty much all of my ideas have come from the "old pro's" on these sites, Jim, Bill, Stosh to name a few...

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:45 pm

Agreed- All of us owe a debt of gratitude to those who experimented with the palm-hut concept in the past. I still thank Banana-Joe for his informative posts about those Washingtonia in St. Louis all those years ago!

I'll start a new thread under weather to determine the coldest on the board!

Cedardave, to get this back on topic, I am very interested to hear how this turns out for you. I say you're crazy, but I say the same thing about Scotty and Bill with their zone 9 palms in zones 5 and 6, respectively. I play it safe only growing palms 1.5 zones outside their USDA ranking! If you do have a hedonics store in Winnipeg, a thermo-cube would be a great idea (thanks again Scott for the idea) just as a back up. If you don't know this is an outlet that turns on at 35f and off at 45f. A fantastic fail-safe if the ground heating fails...

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:29 pm

I'm not worthy!
Here I am worried about keeping a Bismarckia alive in the house (mine is new).
Question--do they need light in winter? I usually assume that temperate-zone palms (Chamaerops, Trachycarpus) don't need much light in winter, but have no idea about a more tropical palm like Bismarckia. If they do need light, a timer and grow-light might do the trick and give some heat--especially if you cycled it so the light was on during your night.
Whether or not they need it, I use a light on a timer for the palms I bring indoors (plus they are by a window). --Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:39 pm

cedardave

I'm also having a heck of a time picturing 250 feet of piping (presumably PVC?) in the ground, fed (warm) by a 5,000 watt pool heater and a 3/4 hp pool pump. (I have the pool, 3/4 hp pump, heater...albeit a diesel furnace in the pool house). But DAMN it's a ways away from my planted Trachy, so I use an electric portable heater in the hut.

Please take some pics of your palms. Thks!

Oh...one more thing:

the insulation below ground goes down 2 feet and sits on another piece of insulation at the bottom. In 3 of the plants they are sitting on another 6-8 inches of the foam insulation

What happens when palm roots bust up the insulation as they grow?

Barb

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:30 am

Dave,

Your protection idea sounds great! I can really appreciate all the hard work and thought you put into this to making palms work for you in your area.

I only have one minor concern that I'm sure you already know but I'm going to say it anyways just in case. Heating the ground to those temps will seriously dry out the roots during winter. I'd suggest keeping a very close eye on the soil to make sure everything stays happy. If you went through all this work you know that anyways

Very cool man! I've come up with a very similar idea that I'll be using in my next home.

Bill