Palm Winter Care Question

[MarcWeaver]

I bought 6 small palms and planted them in the ground in early June. There are 4 needle palms, 1 Mediterranean fan palm, and 1 palm I can't remember the type of (maybe windmill palm.) Foolishly, I planted them all directly in heavy clay soil before I learned about the dangers of freezing in the winter. While they are growing fine now, I am worried that the clay soil will freeze and kill the palms regardless of the aboveground protection I give them. They are planted on the south side of my house, about 2 feet from the foundation. I am in Zone 6b central Maryland. With it being so late in the season, should I dig them up and pot them in the correct well-draining soil and bring them inside for the winter? They are small enough and I have a free window to sit them in front of. Or should I dig them up, remove as much of the clay as possible, the replant them in large holes filled with good soil? I'm kind of worried about stressing them this late in the season. Or should the clay with proper aboveground protection be OK? I am planning to make small enclosures, cover with clear plastic, and use Christmas lights on a temperature controlled switch.

Thanks

[lucky1]

Hi Marc, welcome to the forum.
Glad to have you aboard.

While generally chock full of nutrients, clay is notoriously poor to drain but it isn't just a hazard in winter.
Palms need superb drainage and often die in clay.
If your area is subject to considerable rainstorms they'll need to be planted on some slope/raised bed so water drains away from roots.
Good idea even in good soil.

I'm 50/50 on your main question; will let others chime in here.

Look forward to seeing pics.

Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Marc,
welcome! You'll get some good advice here. I know I have. I joined last Fall with similar winter protection questions, and credit the advice of Barb and others for getting my palms through last winter.
Given the caveat that I am a novice, I say go ahead and leave them in the ground. The kind of protection you describe should keep the soil from freezing. This first winter will likely be pretty tough on them and you may loose some/all of the leaves, which will be pretty depressing in March. I have trouble with rot in late winter/early Spring, so I suggest covering them with large buckets/small trash cans to keep rain/snow/ice off. Electric heat of some sort will be especially helpful with the Mediterranean fan palm.
Anyways, welcome again.
--Erik (in Oklahoma)

[BILL MA]

Welcome to the board Marc!

I'd suggest you leave them in the ground, if you get worried you can simply put a plastic cover on the ground around Nov. to keep the moisture out of the ground. You'll be fine in Maryland, the palms you have are pretty tough for your area once established. After a few years you really wont have to do much for them at all except fertilize them with a good palm fertilizer and supplement some potassium towards fall.

Cover them and baby them this year and water and fertilize good next year and you'll have some vigorous palms for sure. There are many mature specimen palms in Maryland that have survived many years without protection. In a few years you'll be there to.

If your really worried about the soil dig them up in the spring, I bet they'll be ok since your ground hardly freezes there right?

Bill

[MarcWeaver]

Hey everyone, thanks for the advice. I'll make sure to protect them well this winter and I'll leave them in the ground. Bill - actually the ground here enters somewhat of a permanent freeze in January and February, but I don't think it's that deep. The blizzards we had here last winter dumped about 4 feet of snow on the ground, but on the first day the sun came out and the temps were in the high 40s, when I came home from work the location the palms are in now was bare. That's why I chose that location, If 4' of snow can melt in one day, on normal winter days they should be just fine. I actually had 2 small majestic palms on the front porch in pots last year that were green until January. Barb- I'll get some pictures this evening, maybe it will help in positive identification of them.

Marc

[hardyjim]

4-5" of mulch should keep the ground from freezing and will begin the process of adding some
organic matter.
You will need some type of protection anyway for them,so keep them on the dry side during winter.

[lucky1]

4' of snow can melt in one day

Holy cow!

So folks...how come planting palms in clay is bad for the rest of us, but not a mention of it for Marc?



Look forward to the photos!
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
I'd like an answer to the general clay soil topic myself from folks who know more than I do.
I tried to let Marc know I was a novice.
I guess I was making my suggestion based on my own bad experience with digging up palms. So, I'm hoping that if Marc can keep them alive this winter, he can amend the soil with mulch.
But I really don't know.
I'm just glad to have ~18" of great soil on top of my clay layer down below.
--Erik
P.S. I just posted a photo for you in the Off Topic area. Check it out!

[hardyjim]

I think in general if you can amend the clay soil that's great,
palms all over the south grow fine in clay as long as there is drainage.

Since his are already in I don't think I would mess with them now.

[MarcWeaver]

I think the tag on this one said Mediterranean Fan Palm but I'm not sure of this one


I think this one said Windmill Palm


A picture of both with 2 Super Dwarf Cavendish Plants. The tag on the pot said Dwarf Cavendish 8-10', but I think it was wrong. These haven't gained much height this summer.


Unknown cycad from wal-mart clearance rack. I got this last winter and it was alot smaller. I kept it indoors and it formed 5 new fronds inside so it's looking pretty battered after the summer outdoors. It's about 4 feet in diameter now.


My small bananas I just got. The musa basjoo in the red pot was kept indoors for the winter, the dog chewed it down to the soil level, I put the large pot it was in down in the basement and this summer I transplanted the tiny dried up corm in this pot and 2 of them popped out at the same time with a third pup starting now. Amazing.


One of the needle palms


My 2 majesties between the deck sections


And finally my indoor Abyssinian and the banana plant eating 6 month old boxer-mastiff puppy.


If anyone can id the palms or cycad I would appreciate it.

Thanks for looking!!

[MarcWeaver]

Hopefully this works to get the pictures in the post without links... I'm trying one

[wxman]

Have you been watering them this summer? They look really dried up and thirsty. Bananas need a ton of water in the heat to push growth out. You basically can't overwater them in the summer. Palms love lots of water in the summer too. I soak all my bananas and palms every other day and use miracle grow once a week. My trachy is on frond 8, the trachys I planted this summer are on 5-6 fronds each and the bananas went from 3 inch plugs to 6 feet tall.

[BILL MA]

Marc,
It's really been hot down there this year hasn't it! That is a med fan in the first picture and it looks good. With the Cavendish you can't really tell until they get bigger, my guess would be regular dwarfs but I guess you'll find out next year right. LOL! Those aren't hardy outside just in case you didn't know. The cycad looks like a dioon edule to me which is a nice find, there pretty tough I'd think about planting it out next year. The picture you have labeled as a needle is a sabal minor, you might have got your pictures mixed up, I've done that before.

Looking good your on the right track to become a tropical plant nut like the rest of us!

Bill

[hardyjim]

Marc

I agree with Wx-your palms look dried out,either the roots have not recovered from treatment/care
where you bought them or they are still in transplant shock-they need water .

If you look at the leaf blades on the Chamaerops and Trachy they appear folded up/closed.

If this doesn't correct before it starts getting cold or the new leaves are not coming out open/healthy you
may want to pull them up and bring inside for winter/root recovery.


Notice the closed leaf blades on this C.cerifera and the small leaves it's grown this season-
this was an e-bay buy and is slowly recovering from being shipped bare root.

Then check out the healthier C.cerifera pictured below it-

[MarcWeaver]

I water everything every other day. I was unable to water regularly for a week or so, but we did finally get some rain during that period. I used to water the bananas much more, but the new leaves were emerging black so I cut back a little bit. It was very hot here for the last 2 months and getting back into the 90s fast. We had 90+ degree days 27 days in July, with a few over 100 and no rain. I'll post some more pics in a few weeks. Thanks for the information everyone.

[lucky1]

Hi Marc,
Thanks for posting those pics...try the "Img" button next time, instead of the "URL"...that should embed the pics into your post.

Good end of season buys; they do need water (big time!).
While mulch keeps soil from drying out, newly planted specimens should be watered thoroughly before mulch is applied.
Otherwise mulch just absorbs the water (especially bark chips) without letting much of it trickle down into the root zone.

Agree with IDs, except the cycad looks like a Dioon Spinulosum (also a nice find).

Keep us posted on how they all recover.
Barb

[JackLord]

I am probably a couple of hours from you. Its warmer here, but we share the same clay soil. No matter what I plant, I always amend it with peat, coffee grounds, other bits of compost, some leaves, and maybe garden soil. Even after the plant or tree is established, I continue to bury my coffee grounds around the circumference to make it more fertile and give them a nitrogen fix.

Re Winter: As someone else said, put a thick layer of pine bark mulch around the trunks. That will insulate the ground and roots, clay or no clay. Then put a layer of dry leaves. Finally, the plastic enclosure or a leaf cage. As Jim said, and I myself have recently learned, keep the inside dry. That has been my one mistake, although no fatalaties resulted.

[hardyjim]

Dry is the secret for winter along with moderate=cool temps.


Barb-I thought the same thing about the Cycad but didn't see any
of the signature spines on the leaves like Spinulosum.

So Bill's i.d. may be correct.

[MarcWeaver]

The individual leaves on the cycad definitely have spines on them, I'll get some closeups when I get home. I had to use thick gloves to transplant it into this pot.

[hardyjim]

The individual leaves on the cycad definitely have spines on them, I'll get some closeups when I get home. I had to use thick gloves to transplant it into this pot.

Barbs got it right then

[MarcWeaver]

Here's that closeup picture



I'm going to put this in the ground next year. After it flushes again, I'm probably going to cut off these horrendous leaves. I think a lack of proper care was to blame for this. It flushed in the house and the growth was very tender, and I put it outside in direct sunlight right away, probably should of acclimated it first.

[lucky1]

Marc,
that definitely is a D.spinulosum, but it wasn't happy in the sun.
I'd recommend no hot sun at all.
After overwintering indoors, they're sensitive to sun (which I learned the hard way).

Mine is in only morning sun for a couple of hours.


Yours will be a fine specimen soon.
Barb

[MarcWeaver]

Barb,
Thanks for the advice, I have the perfect shaded spot next spring where I'll plant it. I have 2 small dwarf cavendish bananas there that I don't have any pics of yet and they look beautiful compared to the ones I posted the pics of. They're just smaller because of the lack of sunlight but at least they aren't burned to a crisp!!

[lucky1]

Marc, moving your bananas into the sun will do the trick.