Missing the heat in the summer

[dilbert]

Hi folks,

this is my first posting in this forum, so greetings to everyone.

I was wondering if someone is growing Sabal minor or Nannorhops ritchiana in a region with usually cold summers.

I am growing palms oudoors since the early 90s.

First, in Germany I had also a very small Sabal minor that simply didn't grow but I thought that this had to do with the extremely (well relatively) cold winters in the Rhein-Main area (near Frankfurt/Main). For five years that very small Sabal didn't grow and didn't die despite the hot summers, often an entire month with temperatures around 100 °F.

Now, I'm living in Yorkshire, UK. I planted 8 years ago a Chamaerops humilis that does very well without any protection as well as we planted tyme, rosemary, and laurel that all do very well without any protection.

I planted now in December (yes, that's winter also in the UK) a juvenile Sabal minor with 6 leaves about 3 feet high and two Nannorhops ritchiana with only one and half year and each with three grass-like baby leaves of about 6 inches.

At the same time, I planted a Dicksonia antarctica that even kept all its fronds.

This winter was extremely mild with the minimum low of about 23 °F. There were only about ten days with night temperatures below the freezing point and even then I covered the Sabal partially and the Nannorhops entirely.

As winter was extremely mild, we've seen even 75 °F in April but the entire May was extremely cold, almost as cold as has been the winter. We got minimum temperatures of 39 °F at night and day temperatures typically around 55 °F.

The Dicksonia trunk launched new fronds in this time and even a second Chamaerops humilis planted in April this year started flowerishing immediately after planting.

The only plants doing nothing are the Sabal and the two Nannorhops.

The Sabal turned one leave into brown in April. Two other leaves turned out brownish partially now. The spearhead in the middle doesn't move at all.

The Nannorhops's look like in December.

I know that both, Sabal and Nannorhops are slow growers and summer hasn't started yet, but I am a liitle bit concerned now if those plants are the right one for our cool summers. We had already summers with three (!) days above 25 °C (77 °F).

I know from Sabal minor growing the South of the UK, and nothing really about Nannorhops's. So here's my question, finally ...

Can someone tell about his/her experiences with Sabal minor and Nannorhops ritchiana in a regin with cool summers?

[Kansas]

I am in Zone 5 and have had some experience w/ Minors. What I have found is that Minors in the Summer LOVE LOVE LOVE wet feet. I water mine every single day last summer (too early this summer yet) and got two leafs from June to August.
These trees grow naturally in swamps, so water them, water them, water them.

[dilbert]

Thanks for that hint.

I read once already that Sabal minors grow in swamps but also on open wood land. So, I didn't pay to much attention to their watering needs.

But then I have just another question: should I do this during winter as well?

I've never seen any Sabals in their natural habitat. Are those Sabals that grow in swamps soaked with water also during the winter time? When a freeze comes then it gets icy around those Sabals?

[Kansas]

Now I am mostly going by the McCuratain County ones, but as Winter slowly moves in, the "swamps" kind of drain out. Its not real soggy around them.
I hardly water anything in the winter while they are resting.

[dilbert]

OK, this makes sense then. So, I'll water them when it's getting warmer. The warmer it gets the more water they will receive.

[turtile]

Sabal Minor start growing very fast when the temperatures are 85+ F and the lows down't fall below around 78F. Water them every day when its this hot and use a slow release fertilizer (will release more fertilizer at higher temperatures).

I don't have any Nannorhops but I've they should be kept as dry as possible and placed in well drained soil.

[dilbert]

Thanks for that info, too.

I only read once that temperatures should "exceed 77F" for Sabal minor to grow.

I thought only when I planted it that it doesn't matter if it doesn't grow much (the plant is already 3 feet high) but missed the fact that all sort of things like wind or lack of water leave their traces on the leaves, so they need a replacement.

Do you also know what is the minimum temperature for them to grow at all?

The Chamaerops humilis I planted 8 years ago is actually in the shade on a relatively dry place and grows even when temperatures are below 65F. Even in a cool summer it's producing 3 to 5 leaves.

The Nannorhops are are in a sunny and well-drained place, but in this case I read actually after planting them that they are quite picky about cold together with wet soil. This winter was warm and dry, but generally it's the opposite here, so I see myself building a roof out of plexiglas next winter as I have done once for my cacti collection.

[Laaz]

Sabal minors do grow here in the swamps, but are not always in standing water. In the winter, our dry season the areas they grow in are usually dry. We also never really get ice - over. We may have a day or two when ice will form a thin layer, but is gone the next day. Heat & humidity is the key to getting decent growth out of all Sabal varieties.

[Knnn]

Dilbert ~ Hello and Welcome! I've had some S.minor in the ground for the last month or so and have been keeping an eye on growth. Below 21C seems to be when they just about stop growing.We have had a cool start so far, rarely getting above 27C. The one in full sun has also put on the most growth.


Steve

[Wes North Van]

I live in a climate that is very close to yours in the UK. We can grow minors here but they do grow slowly however they do grow in a warm, not hot summer area like ours and do not mind the cool wet winters.

However Nannorhops is a different story. Although cold hardy they hate wet winters and usually form molds in the spears that kill them
Better siuted for areas like South Carolina and Florida.

[dilbert]

Thanks for all the very useful replies.

I think for the Nannorhops I will build some cages with plastic foil that serves in spring and cooler times of the summer as a green house and can be used as a frame for a shelter against rain in the winter as well.

Maybe I'll build such a cage for the Sabal for the cooler summer days as well.

I really didn't want to revive the times when I ran around in the cold nights like a maniac to maintain a dozen heated shelters, some of them 8 ft tall.

That's why I didn't plant any palms for 8 years, but now it seems it has got me again.

At least, it's without thermostats and bulbs and the like ...

[yuccaman]

Hey Dilbert.

I remember Jim that grew a needle palm and sabal minor.
We are in zone 5 and makes it extremly difficult to grow them.

Jim said that the sabal did not like our summer do to the Strong
southwest wind that blew of lake ontario and kept us cool.One wind reached 110 km/h

In 2004 the summer did not get higher than 22C and stayed
around 19-20 all summer.The sabal died in the summer do to strong thunderstorms and cold air.

Our summers can get close to yours but here its humid that makes it feel warmer
and it can go to close 50C in the humidex. The Air temperature could be around 35C.

As for the needle palm, Died in the fall do to heavy rain around 150 mm and cold front passed
and dropped the temperature to -5C because it was wet and it froze. but it survived -26C (Dry)

Your plans should work well. The palms could be on south wall for more heat. Your doing a great job

In my area its just not a good area to do it.

[dilbert]

Hi Yuccaman,

that is also important info. It looks really that serious as I feared.

The point is that those palms are here growing on its limits not from the cold hardiness in winter, but from wetness in winter, and overall from the lack of heat in the summer.

I started also looking up the weather underground pages for Afghanistan and Arkansas. When I see that in Arkansas are now night lows around 70F and here it was at noon 55F, then is this simply ridiculeous.

I selected the Sabal mainly to fill a spot where even a Chamaerops humilis would be to bulky and due to it's cold hardiness. The Nannorhops's also to fill a small space ("they won't grow much and if, I'll prune them" ) nearby a small wall where is the warmest and sunniest place albeit a bit exposed to wind.

But I didn't consider the real needs of this plants. As they're fortunately small, a temporary green-house-like construction might help.

It's funny, but I don't have Trachys anymore here in England despite the fact that they are growing even in November and are, apart from Chamaerops humilis, the only palm that is well-suited to this climate here. Because it doesn't need heat. Maybe I should get one.

[lucky1]

dilbert, welcome to the forum.

If you're still undecided about getting a trachy, ask Wes from North Van to post a pic (he'll know which one...I couldn't find it).

That picture will knock your socks off, and you'll run out and buy two or three!
PS--many others here have wonderful trachys too I'll just remember THAT pic until the end of time!

Barb

[yuccaman]

TrachyCarpus and Chamaerops humilis are great palms for England. Your right they do not need much heat.
Here its to warm for them with the amazing like Vietnam (Example) humidity.

In your area you had some extreme heat waves over the years. Our highest was 41C and humidex 58C

I think you do experince humidity but its not to bad.
Here I have to worry about winter spring summer fall for palms.

Smaller plants do die more in the cold than larger palms so I would plant a bigger one
so it will have more cold hardiness.Small ones I would build a greenhouse for them.

Arkansas is like in the south central of the united states and they get amazingly hot there.
Some places average summer is like 34C.Afghanistan has temps around 40C all summer.
but its dry heat.

I hope you do have hot summer and also for me so I don't lose more plants. I still lost now $1000.00 worth of plants
do to my crappy climate and hardiness zone.

The have to sell trachys for england because its one of the best palms for their climate.Chamaerops humilis
is great too. So get one

[yuccaman]

TrachyCarpus and Chamaerops humilis are great palms for England. Your right they do not need much heat.
Here its to warm for them with the amazing like Vietnam (Example) humidity.

In your area you had some extreme heat waves over the years. Our highest was 41C and humidex 58C

I think you do experince humidity but its not to bad.
Here I have to worry about winter spring summer fall for palms.

Smaller plants do die more in the cold than larger palms so I would plant a bigger one
so it will have more cold hardiness.Small ones I would build a greenhouse for them.

Arkansas is like in the south central of the united states and they get amazingly hot there.
Some places average summer is like 34C.Afghanistan has temps around 40C all summer.
but its dry heat. So get one because you will be happy

I hope you do have hot summer and also for me so I don't lose more plants. I still lost now $1000.00 worth of plants
do to my crappy climate and hardiness zone.

The have to sell trachys for england because its one of the best palms for their climate.Chamaerops humilis
is great too. So get one

[dilbert]

I had already a few Trachys in Germany. I lost also some of them but one finally exceeded the roof of the garage and the crown was visible from the street.

I read that Trachys would even tolerate frozen roots. It might be not that hardy in regard of extreme temperatures, but that's a factor more important in North America where very cold freezes occcur for a limited time.

In continental Europe it's usually not getting that cold but the cold lasts for a longer period. Overall, if day temperatures reach only the freezing point. That's where Trachys are good at.

Second point is that they can cope with hot summer temperatures but don't need them to grow.

The Chamaerops humilis struggles with the winter cold in Germany but that's not relevant for England. Instead, against popular belief it can cope very well with wetness in the winter time. Southern Italy and many other regions in the Mediterranean have their rainfall mostly during winter. Prolonged freezes with day temperatures below the freezing point are almost not existing even here in the Pennines in Yorkshire.

The first Chamaerops I planted here in Yorkshire is in the shade and gets in summer only two hours of sunshine. I dared to plant it there because I saw in Southern France once a Chamaerops that grew entirely in the shade without any beam of sunshine at all and was also big and bulky.

Our first Chamaerops had never any protection and made never any problems. But it wasn't blooming in all that 8 years. Another Chamaerops that I planted this April in a very sunny spot started blooming two weeks later.

It looks like that's an adaption from the ice ages that Mediterraniean plants also grow with cooler temperatures. In our garden are rosemary and laurel thriving and thyme is even bloomimg now. All plants that are not completely hardy in Germany but here they grow like weed ... what they are actually.

[dilbert]

I bought a mini-greenhouse for the Sabal and ventilated mini-shelters for the Nannorhops from the nearby garden market and think that was a good investment.

Now, it is raining since a few days with flooding alerts in some regions nearby. It is noon now and the temperature is 51.5 °F. Reykjavik in Iceland has already 52.8 °F and Nome, Alaska, on the Bering Street will get highs from 55 °F to 70 °F, today.

The calendar says it is summer, but even for a traditional British summer it is somewhat cold. I hope the weather will improve sometimes. We got now an exceptional cool spring since May.

If weather won't improve I see myself looking for some heating.

"Oh, you got a Sabal and Nannorhops. Do they need shelter and heating during the winter?"
"No, not during winter, only during summer ..."

[dilbert]

Hi,

it's me again posting out of the fridge ...

It's now 3 months ago that the weather turned unusually cold. Since then the day time temperaures reached 70°F on a very few days but it was generally around 60°F. Many days, like today, there has beeen only rain with around 55°C degrees. Today, at 11 am it is exactly 55°F. The polar bears in northern Alaska might enjoy such a weather but for the Sabal and the Nannorhops that is simply not a summer as even the mini-greenhouses are pretty much useless without at least a little bit of sunshine.

Serbia and Greece have now their second heat wave with temperatures reaching really 120°C but it looks like that Britain will never get only a little bit of this.

So, I decided to heat the mini-greenhouse (4 feet high) for the Sabal at least in summer to about 85°C during the day.

But I was wondering what to do with the Nannorhops. I am now convinced that they are completely inadaquate for our climate. During winter to wet and during summer simply to cold. I thought that after the warm winter we would get warmer summers, too. But this summer is in contrary extremely cool. As I mentioned already all our mediterranian plants do very well in this cold summer. That's astonishing as roses and even the Dicksonia tree fern don't grow much this year.

Now my question:

Is there anyone living in a climate zone like me who has done anything useful with Nannorphopses? I only see them getting sold as seedling and then you hear never again anything from them. Do they all perish?

Does anyone have them at home behind a window or in a conservatory? Would they grow at least a little in a house that is not heated during summer, only at night but not during teh day when it's inside 70°C?

Mainly, I am concerned how much energy does it cost to grow these Nannorhops and if it's worth the effort.

[Knnn]

You have had a tough year over there so far, hope you haven't been affected by the recent flooding !
I would be inclined to try the Saba l/ Nannorrhops in a full sun position with a dark rock mulch to gain a few degrees.

One that might do well for your climate is Rhopalostylis sapida , also Juania australis , These are a couple I wish it was possible for me to grow here



Steve

[dilbert]

You have had a tough year over there so far, hope you haven't been affected by the recent flooding !
I would be inclined to try the Saba l/ Nannorrhops in a full sun position with a dark rock mulch to gain a few degrees.

We live on a mountain slope in the Pennines, so flooding shouldn't be a problem. I only was by chance last Saturday in Tewkesbury. Wrong time, wrong place. Fortunately, I drove our old Citroën car with a hydraulic suspension that you can lever and with a Diesel engine. So I could pass some flooded roads where only trucks could pass. I needed half an hour to find an exit from that flooded town that is now completely cut off.

The Nannorhops are in full sun from morning to evening but that doesn't help much if there isn't any sunshine for a week or so.

I'm only thinking to build a small stationary greenhouse around them that would have more than 85°F inside at least until the necessary amount of leaves have come out. I only have to check how costly that would be.

I know this from Cycas revoluta. If it is only hot enough they start to grow like crazy. Otherwise they look like dead. Only I misjudged those Nannorhops. As I got only mediterranean plants in the garden that grow with every weather, even this year, I didn't think much about summer temperatures. I was only focussed on winter temperatures as most people are who plant hardy plants.

[Knnn]

With the rising cost of gasoline I wish I had a Citroën

Would a boost in soil temps do the trick? Maybe a couple heating cables that could serve as insurance during the Winter months?

Just a thought, the greenhouse also sounds like a good option.

[dilbert]

Would a boost in soil temps do the trick? Maybe a couple heating cables that could serve as insurance during the Winter months?

This concerns me, too. Presumably, only heating the air with bulb isn't enough. The heat of the air won't penetrate much in the soil. But what I don't know is what is important for the palm to grow: hot air, a warm soil, or both?

[Knnn]

I would think a warm enough root zone and then sun & moisture
Not sure if this can be extrapolated to Palms? ~ Link is to a study involving a monocot that suggest the ideal soil temp would be 25C

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... .tb01804.x

EDIT - Changed Dicot to Monocot ~ been too hot here today to think clearly

[dilbert]

Interesting article. Thanks.