Next winter....palm protection I'm going to try.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:50 am

We're all looking for the best protection methods for our outdoor planted palms and each season we learn new ways to protect them.

Want to share experience with one method I tried this winter and an idea for next winter.

First, after seeing something like this posted by hardyjim in Iowa and not being able to find them online a year ago they are now plentiful and variety and cheap to buy as well. They seem to be perfect for smaller palms in the ground. I had one string of mini lights on a thermocube and this Sabal was planted next to my house that faces south. My main concern was snow cover damaging the self supporting "dome" but snow pretty much slid off and didn't cause any issue. I will by more of these for smaller palms in the fall, and hopefully larger sizes will be available as well.

Secondly, I've used these plastic barrels I get from work to cover other larger palms as they are very sturdy and simply put a piece of thicker plexiglass over the top with a brick to hold it down.

Problem is, it doesn't really have any insulation properties so I tried looking online for a styrofoam "barrel" or even two "C's" that I could join together to form a "tube" that could be stackable as palm grew. I looked everywhere under a variety of word searches and didn't turn up anything although I could find pictures online showing what I had in mind, but with no link on where to purchase like this....

I know I can stack these barrels and support them in the wind by outside fence posts with PVC tubing over them that will allow for growing height as palm grew using ratching straps. So, I thought I would try sprayable Styrofoam in cans to line the inside of the barrel, although I didn't know if it would stick to the sides. I wanted to share the following pic to show what 1 can will do for coverage ($2.50 per can on sale) and to show that indeed the foam will stick to the sides. I will say, you have to put the barrel on it's side like in picture so foam doesn't run down the sides. It only takes 10 minutes or so for it to cure enough that you can roll the barrel around to spray more foam. Also after that 10 minutes you can use your hand, or maybe rolling pin to smooth it out.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:18 am

I like the modular styrofoam pieces,thats a great idea....

I have been thinking about something like what
you are making there,down the street is Freedom foam
insulators...I have considered asking them if after they
spray out a house attic,if they have any left if I could pay
them to spray my wire cages to create something like you
have there...probably more expensive than my current set up though...

Good plan though,it sure would make it easy if you could have
pieces made up already and then connect them...

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:24 am

That's my plan Jim. Storing the barrels is kind of a pain because of the room they take up....and it depends on how many palms in the ground a person has.

At At Menards they DO sell a kit to spray foam in a "fan" pattern like professional insulators do but the spray kit is $200+ dollars plus the cans of foam (inserts).

Your right, if you can ask that company to spray the inside of a barrel or cage and it's cheap enough then go for it. Great idea really, will have to ask a company here what they would charge me to do the same if I brought them the barrels. Never hurts to ask.

My best friend works for Read D Mixed concrete and was looking for foam concrete forms for me as that is what those tubes basically are but he hasn't had any luck.

I did find a company in the UKRAINE! lol that sold exactly what I wanted. I'm sure shipping about be expensive lol

Post what you find out with your idea.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:52 am

I like that styro formed barrel idea, Scott.
Except for the rolling pin part

If preformed styro "barrels" aren't available, wonder if Sonotube makes larger sizes than currently.
Expensive though, 12" diameter was $129 at Menard's.

We Canadians pay nearly $9 for spray on foam cans!

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:07 am

Barb, here it's on sale usually 2/$5 so might take 4 1/2 cans per barrel BUT, once it's done..it's done. Checked the one I did yesterday in the pic and not only did it dry rock solid but very secure to the side of the barrel and that was what I was wanting to find out.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:32 am

Yeah, not surprised it adhered.

One Fall after erecting the big palm hut, I noticed slivers of daylight at the joined sections.
Armed with a spray foam can, I sprayed every inch along fitted and screwed panels,
The carpenter, next spring, had to use one of those huge heavy hammers to get the panels apart once screws were removed.
The air was blue that day.

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:11 pm

Whats fun is,you can use almost anything to insulate...
I wrapped a poncho around one palm and a comforter
around another,worked great,just need some plastic to
keep it rain/snow proof.

I have used wire like this to wrap the bubble wrap around...

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/user/orbea6 ... a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... 6afrxa.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 000_0001_zpsav6afrxa.jpg"/></a>

Redwood fencing also works great and is very stiff once its wound up..

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/user/orbea6 ... h.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... tgrzmh.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo SAM_0139_zpso8tgrzmh.jpg"/></a>

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:11 pm

Yes I've used fencing wire too; not so good in heavy snowloads.

The styrofoam barrel would be fast to set up...nice and wide and good height for a few years anyway.

Barb

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:23 pm

Pictures of what I was referring to about using fence posts, and PVC pipe to extend the outside support of any kind of hut or protection to higher limits. It's cheap and expandable. Steel fence posts driven into the ground with a fence post hammer/slide as close to the hut as you can get, then simply slide the PVC pipe over the steel post. Add to the PVC as necessary using connecting collars.

Windmill palm took a beating this winter because for once I didn't put a light above it and moisture from condensation damaged fronds. It will be ok, just won't look the best for a while. It's West facing so in the Winter doesn't get a lot of sun where it's at to keep hut moisture to a minimum.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:45 pm

Steel fence posts driven into the ground

Our ground is really rocky (shale); yours must be nice soil.
Barb

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:55 pm

Where I live we have Loess soil.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:33 pm

I used steel fence posts, but 3 of 'em, and just sat them on the ground, tied at the top like a teepee.

Saves on sparks.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:18 am

lucky1 wrote:

Saves on sparks.

LOL

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:19 am

Hey sashaeffer

Can you post a pic of the spear area on that Waggie?

That is going to be a pretty palm by Sept!

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:24 am

That's not a Waggie Jim, It's a Windmill that had dried fronds, and some fungus so had to cut it back. It's been in the ground there for 3 seasons.

Normally every winter we get some mild days and I open things up and let them breathe and I did with all my other palms except this one because I made structure too tall and more cumbersome to quickly take down and put back up..

Here is pic of spears though..

I've treated with peroxide already.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:29 am

Picture of it last fall before putting stuff away. Looking really good too

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:13 am

Gorgeous second pic, Scott.
Wow.

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:31 am

Ok...definitely not a Waggie-lol

I missed that you cut the leaves...the spear looks ok
but I would keep an eye on the fan blades, they close
when the spear has been severed-but like you said...
its already been treated.

Thx 4 tasking time to post the pics.

chadec · Post by **chadec** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Hope that trachy pulls through, I know how it feels to be unsure.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:06 pm

I just keep checking the spears(more than one) and all are firm.

We're having a great week/10 days of weather of warmth, and no rain. If that changes and rain is forecast then will cover the center to keep it dry until I see fronds, spears pushing out more.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:32 am

good plan

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:53 pm

There probably isn't a worst place for a palm like that than where it's at since it's in shade most of the time no matter the season and only gets direct sun late afternoon till sunset. I think it will be fine, just slower to recover there. If it does die, I'm making a road trip to San Antonio TX in May with my truck and trust me, it won't come back empty anyway

if if I needed to would buy a larger specimen or Sabal Palmetto and put there.

Check out this post (text and pic) from a facebook thread. One of the best comparison picture I've ever seen.

'Washingtonia robusta, Sabal palmetto, Phoenix canariensis, Washingtonia filifera, and Trachycarpus fortunei" (taken this year)

from "hardy palms and exotics" on facebook. Picture taken Carlsbad, NM and only the trunks were wrapped/protected. Not the crown or fronds.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:02 pm

Great comparison shot, Scott.
That CIDP looks like mine today

As always, the Trachy wins.

Barb

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:04 pm

And the Sabal!

Have seen some other threads on various FB palm pages about how Sabal Palmetto's might be more cold hardy than previously thought.

I have a 4 footer I over wintered in the ground and looks fantastic and even pushed a spear over the winter.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:13 pm

The biggest one is a Sabal, I presume?

even pushed a spear over the winter.

Yet some people from milder zones report losses...

Barb

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:17 pm

This S. Palmetto, along with another Trachy about the sames size both are on the South side of the house where they had a lot of natural warming vs the one damaged that faces the West. Also have a S. Minor about 4/5 ft tall on south side and over protected it and it got heat damaged, but will come back as well.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:29 pm

Needle palm minimal protected

Sabal minor. Heat damaged, and cut off the nice big fronds it had, but crown appears ok and am sure will come back. Next year will just put barrel over it and no heat.

Sabal Palmetto looks just as good as Needle. Had cage around it, and one string of C7's

Little European fan palm I bought at Walmart in California when I was there for $8. Bought two. Both planted on south side of house, but this one gets more sun. Other one (not pictured) lived, but heat damaged and just has one frond. Just rose cone and 50 mini lights inside kept it happy.

Windmill Palm. This was transplanted to here last year. Almost died from the move, but after doing a hurricane cut, came back strong in the fall and showing lots of promise here. Zero damage from winter.

Palms that over wintered in garage getting used to sun again.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:50 pm

Well done, Scott.

The garage palms did really really well too.
Great specimens.

Barb

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:02 pm

Thanks Barb.

chadec · Post by **chadec** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:56 pm

Very nice job on keeping all those palms happy over winter. Last time I checked mine were still alive.

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:17 pm

Last fall I had a sun tube installed in the third car garage where palms over winter. It helps a lot of natural light for them.

chadec · Post by **chadec** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:29 pm

All of mine along with the bananas are shoved in a small room with the water heater. There is 1 CFL bulb on 24/ 7. My building which houses around 400 agave and cacti has 10 T8 light fixtures and baseboard electric heat.

Okanagan desert-palms · Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:23 pm

Scott great pics and info on your palms. Really like the barrel`s for protection idea. I`m not the only palm nut using the garage as a storage area for palms. What are you using to heat the garage in the winter?

John

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:22 am

John, my garage never drops below freezing. I have newer insulated garage doors, and I've added insulation to the attic above the garage. Years ago I added a wall mounted propane wall heater so if outside temps are predicted to drop below 0F I will turn it on LOW and let it run all the time. Doesn't take much propane(hooked to main tank that feeds furnace) and will keep garage at 50F easily. I have two ceiling fans as well to help keep heat off ceiling but some of the taller palms I can tell get some frond damage from the heat that is up there(queen palms) so this season I hooked up one of those high speed room fans to a timer and have it set to run 15 minutes every hour to circulate the warm air throughout the garage and it seemed to help.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:30 am

Love the sun tube idea!

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:00 am

Here in the Midwest we are having May type days in Early March...even extended forecast looks good.

Here is a series of pictures of the 14 inch Sun Tube that is in 3rd car garage where some palms over winter. It was mid day when I took this picture and there are 4 potted palms that spent Winter indoors. 3 species of King palms and one Cuban Royal palm. I had them outside for a bit getting some sun and spraying them for spider mites (Myola King had them bad) so until I can leave them all outside for good I have them below the Sun Tube. No other ceiling lights are one in the garage, only the garage doors with windows are allowing any extra light in, and they are facing west. Sun Tubes do put off a lot of light on totally clear days like today and can't help but think the palms love it in the winter as well.

Okanagan desert-palms · Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:30 pm

Scott that`s a great idea "sun tubes"for the garage. I have been using T5 fluorescent bulbs to give extra light in my garage. The sun would be a whole lot cheaper

How much all in for one sun tube? I may need two or three next winter.

John

sashaeffer · Post by **sashaeffer** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:37 pm

Sun Tubes themselves aren't that expensive. They come in 10inch and 14inch sizes. Without ever seeing one in some body else's garage I opted for the larger size. The real expense is if you have to have it installed by someone..which I did. When it comes to cutting holes in the roof of your home, I didn't want to trust myself for the install..and the potential leaks. I think I paid $300? for it to be done. That side of the garage angles to the South too.

Here is a pic of it's profile on the roof.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:05 pm

Great photos of what the sun tube does, Scott.

John, I visited a friend who recently renovated his "middle of the house bathroom" which had no windows.
On a tour of the renovations, during a half-cloudy day, I was absolutely floored by the amount of "daylight" in his normally dark shower enclosure.

And had the day been sunny, the light cast by the sun tube would've probably equated to a 200 w bulb.
I wouldn't have believed it without seeing it myself.
And if you're up in Vernon any time, let me know and I'll take you over to his place. It's only 5 minutes away.

Worth every penny.
Agree with Scott about the professional installation re leaks.

Barb

Okanagan desert-palms · Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:51 am

Thanks for the info Scott. Agreed that a pro should do the install. Barb maybe a time for a visit it`s been a while.

John