McCurtain County Sabal minor

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:04 am

Here is a slide show from my trip yesterday to see how the McCurtain County, Oklahoma, Sabal minor fared after the recent cold weather.

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DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:22 am

Very cool thanks for sharing. Only if they would live here.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:16 am

Thanks Erik! Those strap leaves certainly look cold damaged to me! What was the low like there?

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:41 am

Paul,
the mesonet site (mesonet.org) lists +9 F for Idabel.
The site where the possibly cold-damaged palm was found was a little (30 km) north and up higher, and down at the bottom of a steep gorge where cold air might have settled during the radiational cooling event we had. That is why I wanted to look there. The particular strap leaved plant with apparent cold-damage was in the open. So, I thought if it as a worse-case scenario.
My over-all impression though was of astoundingly healthy plants. --Erik
Edit for clarity: the +9 for Idabel was for Feb 10; the 2011 low for Idabel (largest town) so far is +4 F (-16 C). Again, this particular habitat likely got colder.

Cameron_z6a_N.S. · Post by **Cameron_z6a_N.S.** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:57 pm

Great pics!! You're very lucky to have such a cold-hardy strain of minor native to your state!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:09 pm

Cool pics Erik. How far away from your place is that???

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:44 pm

Scotty,
I have been drinking some of W's home-made muscadine wine and so have (mis)interpreted your question as a request for a travelogue.
Context first. I live in Bixby, one of the wealthiest communities in OK. The photo below was taken by my wife back in November from her office, a Bell helicopter. Her "bird" was made in 1978 and bought at auction recently for US$8,000. They fixed it up some. She flew over me this morning doing about 200 knots with a good tailwind. I was burning trash out back.
I guess in some places gov't folks pick up trash and burn it for you. Does that happen up in Canada? I last spent time up there in Port Harcourt, BC. Seemed pretty rich to me.

McCurtain County is the poorest of Oklahoma's 77 counties. So, not so many double-wides down there--mostly single-wides and shacks.

To save on gas, I drove my Toyota Rav4 (2wd, 5-spd, just 190k mile on the odo.). I should have brought the old Chevy truck with 4wd. Gravel roads gave way to mud, then the roads ended. I drove as well as I could fully off-road, then got out and walked. So, Scotty, the drive home took four hours. If you do a google map search you'll scratch your head and wonder why it took so long for so few miles. Trust me--I was doing 80 mph the last couple of hours.

Anyway, I'm back with my chickens, goats, horses etc. Probably going back down next month as I loved it down there. Did I mention that it was warm in February?!?
--Erik

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/- ... site"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_r-Mv ... 0185_o.jpg" height="383" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:10 pm

Erik,
Nice habitat pics.

Glad you made it out of there in one piece...

Those Sabals did amazingly well considering the lows they experienced.
but like all palms, it's the duration of cold that's important.

Port Harcourt?
B.C. had a premier named Harcourt once (thank God only once!)
Seems it's the capital of Rivers State in Nigeria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Harcourt

Ahem...did you happen to have a shovel along?

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:14 am

Oops--I have been to Nigeria. I meant Prince Rupert, BC.
No shovel. I think Sabal are hard to transplant.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:33 am

Wow eric,

They dont look to bad at all. Concidering the winter you have down there.

As for the garbage up here...... In my city, and in Calgary, garbage is either city collected, or rural areas have their own designated dump sites. As far as I know, burning trash here is illegal..

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 am

Erik- I don't think that 9F would injure a McCurtain, even at that size. I do, however, think that if it was much colder than that (say -16C), a strap leafed specimen, even from that population, could be burnt!

Any Gators?

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:28 pm

I saw one, and heard a splash from another. Basically, I think the Alligator population came through as well as the native palms.

I am about to start a new thread on Sabal minor at the Tulsa Zoo, where they are naturalizing. It is close (c 1 km) to the Tulsa airport where the NWS station is so we have reliable temperature data.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:57 pm

Are you trying to say there are Alligators in Oklahoma?????

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:42 pm

We have 'gators and palms in OK!
I am willing to bet that 99% of Okies don't know it.

OT:
If you want to read more about these critters, here is a link to an article on them:
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/ ... p17_21.pdf

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:40 pm

That is pretty cool. Thanks for the pics. Looks like a fun trip.

I reckon I could drive the 200 miles to Virgina Beach and see native Sabals.

We are both so close, yet so far.

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:54 pm

It is so frustrating to me that we here in Vancouver cannot get a sabal minor. No one carries them in stock.
If you want a trachy there are millions of them but no needles or sabals.
They would easily make it here without protection.
I tried to convince some nurseries to bring them in but they won't.
I have talked to Rice Road in Ontario and they will be brining them in but they are not sure they want to ship to Vancouver.
I am so frustrated.

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:12 am

Very cool, hope the animals are ok too!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:35 am

WEst North Van......

The Sabals wouldnt have a problem, but wouldnt the needle palms need protection in the winter, just from the heavy rains you get? As far as Im aware, Needle palms need to be kepts somewhat dry for the winter..... Mabey thats why they dont carry them?

Also, check out southcoast gardens. I belive the ship plants, at least in ontario..........

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:28 am

I have a needle palm that has been in the garden for 4 years and during that time we have had some of the coldest temps that I have ever seen here in Vancouver and they have done well unprotected. Never any frond damage or anything.
They are rock solid here.
I know Banana Joe has a very large one in his garden and it is fine also.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:22 am

YEs, but i know they can handle anything vancouver can throw at them temp wise, but im talking more about the HUGE amounts of rain you get in the winter. Double that will cool temps, doesnt that usual mean the end of a needle palm?

Im just going by what ive read and heard from other people. Unfortnatly I dont have one of my own.

Im not saying they can or cant ( im glad your survived there so well!), im just interested in the whole " they cant grow here because...."

Of course theres more to the plants survival then moisture and temp right? How well your soil drains, duration of temps/moistiure, sunlight wind and dozen of other facters play a part.

I do undetstand about plants being unavailable. Its hard to find Canna here, let alone bamboo, palms, or bananas. Ive never even seen musa sold as houseplants here. Almost every "tropical" or tropical looking plant i have was shipped here. ( I got lucky with my Fargesia Rufa, Colocasia and Alocasia. Walmart had a small amount of colocasia bulbs, and a local grocery store had 6 Alocasia Odora bulbs for sale, so far thats the best ive seen).

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:09 pm

Wes North Van wrote:It is so frustrating to me that we here in Vancouver cannot get a sabal minor. No one carries them in stock.
If you want a trachy there are millions of them but no needles or sabals.
They would easily make it here without protection.
I tried to convince some nurseries to bring them in but they won't.
I have talked to Rice Road in Ontario and they will be brining them in but they are not sure they want to ship to Vancouver.
I am so frustrated.

They are not exactly in abundance here either- and we are a 3 hour drive from their northern edge. I found two at a local nursery, but they were tucked away in a dark corner of the facility. They were not priced and the clerk had to confer with the manager and look up the SKU number. They also randomly pop up at Home Depot now and then. Otherwise, yea, its all Trachys and Needles, all the time.

All together I have 5 after 2 mail order casualties.

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:12 pm

great photos! I've never seen such detail from that area.....thanks for sharing.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:29 pm

Tim,
you're welcome. I loved it down there and can't wait to go back next month. W has a mandatory training nearby in Arkansas so we're hoping to make a date weekend out of it.
Mike,
critter's are all fine, both up here on the farm (OK, a bit of frost bite, but no deaths) and down in McCurtain County.
Jack,
make a road trip south and share photos!
--Erik

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:36 pm

Eric... you get any big storms down there today? The weather channel here was talking about tornado activity down there..

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:46 pm

Jessie,
thanks for asking.
We had a delightful spring storm!
I went crazy and moved most indoor plants outside to catch real rain water. We got only about 2 cm. I brought all but the largest plants outside for it, then brought most back in or at least tucked them up under the eaves as we will get to about -1C tonight.
--Erik

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:54 pm

I cant wait till we get out first storm of the year. Ill probably end up doing the same thing as you LOL.

I concider it a good sign. Warm air is moving north. Only a matter of time now

Thanks again for the pics.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:54 am

I can see why Erik's so smitten with Sabals.
Beautiful strap leaves on these little guys.

Sabal mexicana
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5255/547 ... e7df4f.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04506" />

Sabal riverside
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/547 ... 24c078.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04505" />

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:10 am

Needles have done well here so I guess the rain doesn't bother them. I think the biggest problem for both sabal minor and needles is the lack of summer heat. We barely get above 85F and they need a lot of that to grow well.
They are slow growers here in Vancouver but they do survive.
I checked on South Coast Gardens and when I google them I got some hits in California and some in Florida.
Do you know the exact website?
Thanks!

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:00 pm

Anyone bought anything from them?
They seem to have a good selection of needles and s. minors.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:14 am

The Montreal plants guy posts here sometimes. Maybe you can send him a PM? Someone must recall his username...

South coast is redoing their website right now, so I think they are offline for a while. Hopefully they will be finished soon!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:18 am

Paul Ont wrote:The Montreal plants guy posts here sometimes. Maybe you can send him a PM? Someone must recall his username...

CoconutMike

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:20 am

There was another one wasnt there? The one who build those huge sheds to protect them?

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:44 pm

I just ordered two 15 gal sabal minors and one 15 gal needle from Mike today.
Pretty excited. They should arrive by the end of May.
If anyone else wants some palms from Mike just let him know you want them on the same shipment and we can split the cost of freight. Another fellow from Victoria just did that so we will be splitting the costs of freight. The only drawback is it will be shipped to my place in North Vancouver. You would have to come by my place to pick them up. Let me know if you are interested.

coconutmike · Post by **coconutmike** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Hello everyone. Just letting everyone know that I do have needle palms and sabal minor and they are living for me and seeding and most have just minimum protection. It is true that these 2 palms do not like winter rain, but that is pretty much true for all living things. When we go to the beach we test the water with our toes before going in. Ha-Ha. West coast has no problem with these 2 palms. BananaJoe has needles and sabals all over the place in his upper and lower gardens with snow on them and they are fine. Plant slightly higher than soil level by mounding up existing land. Add gravel and sand to your composted soil and mulch base for winter. We are organizing a truck to North Vancouver to WES and AARON and we have a few more interested people in that area. This would be a great time for you guys to experiment with these palm and share the shipping cost at a reduced rate. We also have other palm varieties. I opened up windmill-needle-sabal minor and nanital last week in my garden here is video and here are my sites if you want to see what we have.
www.montrealplants.com
www.windmillpalms.info
www.montreallandscaping.ca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF9z6nRlq34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6itBsGqWIs

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:27 pm

Nice job overwintering!

(The "uncovering" video is 3rd from the end in list, the "...RLQ34" video).

Barb

coconutmike · Post by **coconutmike** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:44 pm

Thanks Barb/lucky1
regards
Coconutmike

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:33 pm

I cannot believe it, but true: I have not been back to the Red Slough since then, until this weekend.

I volunteered/was volunteered to organize a Field Meeting of the Oklahoma Academy of Sciences and choose mcCurtain County. The meeting was this weekend. For my Friday night keynote speaker, I invited Dr. Chris Butler, who has been doing recent research on McCurtain County Sabal minor (and Sabal more generally). Plus he enjoys growing a variety of cold-hardy palms at his home north of Oklahoma City. And has given me palms he started from seeds hard to find elsewhere (Nannorhops, stuff like that).

Saturday, we set out for Red Slough. Not having been since February, 2011, I got lost. Pavement gave way to gravel, then the gravel ended and the roads were mud. Then we left those when we went through a locked gate (Dr. Butler has access for his research).

Sadly, my good camera wasn't working. Dr. Butler took some photos I think he will share. In the meantime, here is a cell phone snapshot I took:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/drterdal/9889238555/" title="Red Slough Sabal minor tour group by drterdal, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3706/9889 ... 4907_c.jpg" width="600" height="800" alt="Red Slough Sabal minor tour group"></a>

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:36 pm

In brief, they looked healthy. Seeds were still too green to be ideal for picking. A few more weeks.
-------------
I also examined the small population further north, at Beaver's Bend. Again, they looked healthy. Here is one I took a photo of this morning, once my camera was working:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/drterdal/9889165673/" title="Sabal minor Beaver's Bend by drterdal, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/9889 ... ca82_c.jpg" width="800" height="594" alt="Sabal minor Beaver's Bend"></a>

Zabola · Post by **Zabola** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:34 am

Great pictures, beautiful green colour, preparing for the winter in their rocky surrounding.. you are happy to live "near" cant beleive you didnt visit that place 2 years? I would like to buy some 10-20 seeds from you (straight from the field), would like to see the population with my own eyes too but the gators..!! Were you afraid going alone the first time? All in all very nice, thanks.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:36 am

My Saturday night speaker was a young man studying the Alligator population there. We did see a young one, about a meter long. No, not worried about Alligator. There has NEVER been a documented attack on a human in Oklahoma history.

We did disturb a cottonmouth snake (Agkistrodon piscivorus) resting under a Sabal minor clump. Also about a meter long. They are quite venomous, and have a reputation for being aggressive, but this one moved away from us.

As always, the wildlife I worry most about in the woods is the human (Homo sapiens). McCurtain County has a reputation for illegal production of drugs like meth out in the woods, so my main concern is not stumbling upon an operation like that. I feel safer going in a group like I did on Saturday vs on my own.

PalmsNorth.com

McCurtain County Sabal minor

McCurtain County Sabal minor

travelogue

Alligator mississippiensis

Sabal Minor

Sabal Minor

Re: Sabal Minor

spring (?!?) storm

Canadianplant

montrealplants.com

Montreal Palms

SABAL MINOR AND NEEDLE PALM-MONTREAL PALMS -Coconutmike

montreal palms

Update (sorry took so long)

Beaver's Bend Sabal minor