Sabal minor (Not Growing?)

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:42 pm

Our Sabal minor seems not to be growing. It has been planted out for nearly two months. It has lost a third of its oldest leaves to browning, nearly immediately.
Now I am concerned that I notice no growth. Also now the healthy leaves are "closing up".
What is going on here? Full sun first 2/3 of the day. Great drainage. Mulched heavily. Watering more lately. Clay soil 'round here.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7483828442/" title="Lincoln-20120701-00869 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7120/7483 ... acb1_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120701-00869"></a>

Was a fully open leaf, I noticed it and the others beginning to "close back up":
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7483830140/" title="Lincoln-20120701-00870 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7483 ... 858d_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120701-00870"></a>

A month ago I used marker to track new growth... hasn't budged, this is today:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7483831374/" title="Lincoln-20120701-00871 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7112/7483 ... f5a8_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120701-00871"></a>

HELP! I don't want to lose this palm!

gpenny · Post by **gpenny** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:27 am

Not sure, but you may be "loving it to death"! While Sabal minors grow in swamps here in S.C. where they are sometimes in standing water for weeks, they actually grow faster and larger when planted in sandy loam with good drainage. If it is showing decline with plenty of water try slacking off the water and see what happens. Also, all Sabals love high heat (what have your temps been like?). Maybe it is the combination of too much water with cool temperatures. Transplanting any Sabal can be tricky at times, even when planting from a pot. You can often get dieback of outer fronds while the heart remains green. The heart on yours still appears healthy and that's what's important.

KrisK · Post by **KrisK** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:07 am

Agree, looks too wet. I'd let it dry out some. It may sulk awhile before it grows. Is the spear tight?

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:13 am

It has been hitting the low to mid 90's every day for the past week or so... Very little rain. But I water daily.
The young spears are perfectly tight and strong, just not moving yet.

So perhaps ease back on the watering?

coconutmike · Post by **coconutmike** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:22 am

Sabal Minor is a very slow growing plant -Don't expect too much new growth. they like a sandy soil and prefer to dry out between watering even though they often grow in swampy conditions. Try amending the soil around the base of the plant with the new Miacle-Gro soil and some washed sand or sany loam.

Good-luck
Mike

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:28 am

I've got a little one, Adam, that grows at a snail's pace.

Any chance the mulch is too high up the trunk?
I'd pull it back 2 inches all around the base of palm to maintain the same "soil level" as previously.

Barb

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:41 pm

Thank you all for the suggestions!
I have pulled back the soil and mulch to the level of soil when it was potted.
Soil there and below was moist.
Will allow more time to dry between waterings.
Noticed that second from smallest spear HAS grown half an inch taller in the past three weeks.
Might still need to trim off browning fronds,
wish me luck!
Cheers!

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:17 pm

I may not be an expert but I do know that clay chokes everything!!! it is too damned dense and heavy UGH! Good luck, hope it fares well...

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Sabal in eastern Canada? I've given up on Sabals down here in Mass........they are like snails. I bet you'll have best luck warming up your soil. Not sure how to do that. Air temp isn't sufficient.....gotta get the soil temps up.

Bill as a few HUGE ones from 1,000 gallon containers (LOL)..............just kidding but you know what I mean. His are actually sending up blooms now. I'm not sure how fast they grow......perhaps a couple new leaves per season.

Perhaps you can do some sort of continuous drip system with very warm water or heating cables??

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:10 am

Keep in mind that Sabals have rep of not enjoying being moved.

The leaves that have folded may or may not open and although this IS
a good indicator of trouble(most likely root trouble)it doesn't mean
it isn't getting it's act together-be patient,they are slow but also hit it
with some root stimulator-the whole adjustment period for palms
can really be speeded up with good soil and a root stimulator.....
sometimes by more than a year!

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:24 pm

My soil surface temperature hit 140*f or 60*c yesterday... thats when the remote electronic thermometer cuts out.. my manual thermometer hit the top and passed 50*c two weeks ago and now is broken. Think maybe that could be hot enough?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:07 pm

140F??? Holy cow, Adam.
That's hot even for a Sabal.

Barb

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:04 pm

Hi all,

I have a couple of Sabals and a number of (dying) Rhapies. I do not protect them other than applying Freezeproof. Now, most of the needles have rotted away (except for the babies that sprouted from the bases and therefore lean to a certain extent) whereas the Sabals have lost all their leaves but are growing them back. I have almost one full leaf now! I consider it success. By the end of the growing season, I'll end up with 2-3 leaves. As this palm has been in the ground for 3 years now, I expect it to be a bit hardier going forward.

And the bittersweet news: the Sabal started to bloom!!!! But the bunny residents chewed off the top half, ouch!

Greetings from Oakville --> about zone 6a-b
Rob

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:27 pm

(dying) Rhapies.

Oh no...the rabbits are eating them too?

How about some kind of mesh/netting over the rest of the Sabal bloom.

What a curse those rabbits are...

Hope you're enjoying your continued heatwave.

Barb

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:46 pm

Thanks Barb. And an excellent idea! It is like in the tropics, just wonderful... procided you can breath

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:23 pm

So... since I lost my Sabal x texensis 'Brazoria' this spring due to toooooo dry conditions, although I was watering like mad,
I thought I would check just how wet the root ball of my Sabal minor was. >.>.
I dug beside it parallel hole down. Clay. Dry. Deep cracking crevices... Ta-da! There is my rootball. I was worried I would damage some of the roots that have grown out from the plant. But as I get closer.... NO roots have grown outwards from the rootball. In fact soil from around it has shrunken away due to the clay sucking away moisture from far away.

I chose to pull out the plant.
After two months in the ground, this is what I found:
Sabal minor dug up to reveal potbound roots, leess than 5% root dieback in 2 months, maybe 3 to 5 % new root growth

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7511619594/" title="Lincoln-20120705-00893 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8142/7511 ... aae4_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120705-00893"></a>

and Sabal minor close up of potbound roots

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7511621616/" title="Lincoln-20120705-00894 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/7511 ... 446e_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120705-00894"></a>

Sabal minor showing some growth in past month, I ammended the soil heavily with peat, perlite, garden soil and sand mix.. make it more at home and less affected by the surrounding clay... also created a drainage ditch so there will be no "clay bowl" scenario. I also removed any dead or decayed root material... as well as lightly touseled the exterior roots to allow them to reach out. I believe 100% the plant was just too dry and tooo potbound. Lets wait and see!

Better luck this time! Wish me luck!

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7511615028/" title="Lincoln-20120705-00895 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7126/7511 ... 0579_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120705-00895"></a>

gpenny · Post by **gpenny** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:50 am

Talking about pot-bound palms you may want to read the following article: http://www.raingardens.com/psst/articles/palmpot.htm
It was written a few years ago by several Palm Society high ranking members. I have not gotten up the nerve to try it yet!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:46 am

Really shows how slow palms can be to establish!

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:08 am

do Sabal minors like a high pH soil? I recall Carl using crushed seashells around some Sabals........our pH is like 5.0 so perhaps I need to raise my pH??

gpenny · Post by **gpenny** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:31 am

Here in S.C. they grow naturally in alkaline soils in the low country and more acidic soils in the upstate. The ones in my yard (Central S.C.) grow in about 6.5. I don't amend in any way and mine are very large.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:04 pm

Thanks for the pH info.
Good to have that important aspect brought up.

My palm potting soil is 6.2 (I emailed them), and my native soil here is 7.2.

Barb

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:55 am

Each of my marked fronds have grown over half an inch in only five days since replanting. I bashed the soil against the potbound roots to make them continue to feel restricted. I have watered to nearly soggy every third day. The fronds have reopened and don't appear "closed up" any more. I feel good about this now.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:46 pm

Oh thank goodness Adam that you caught it in time.
Those photos show there was basically no soil remaining.

I don`t know if Sabals like to be root pruned, but there comes a point (in a pot) where the soil is gone and roots circle forever.
I might have made some vertical cuts with a kitchen knife about 2 or 3 inches long here and there.
And hoped the roots would branch and grow straight.

I`ve had the same thing happen, but with my CIDP, just a mass of roots and apparently I should`ve pruned roots hard.

Sometimes root pruning occurs by accident when a tractor drops the palm upside down...ahem.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/1519489660/" title="DSC00452 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2224/1519 ... af88_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC00452"></a>

I think it`s imperative that we do SOME root pruning every time we pot up.
Or else roots never straighten out again.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/1519509800/" title="DSC00457 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2011/1519 ... 3e11_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC00457"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/1519497644/" title="DSC00454 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2390/1519 ... bcc8_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC00454"></a>

gpenny, yes we had an interesting discussion somewhere here a couple years ago about pot planting.
Seems some people take the instructions too literally

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6801360666/" title="001 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7054/6801 ... 87ef_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="001"></a>

Keep us updated Adam on its continued recovery.

Barb

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:05 am

A week ago

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7511615028/" title="Lincoln-20120705-00895 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7126/7511 ... 0579_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120705-00895"></a>

pics from today recovered growth after touseling roots and replanting, 7 days later

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7555548460/" title="Growth indicated in difference between the lines by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7136/7555 ... 8904_z.jpg" width="640" height="359" alt="Growth indicated in difference between the lines"></a>

and this newest frond had no growth after 5 weeks, see here the growth after 7 days

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7555548452/" title="Als week ago this youngest grond showed no growth in previous five weeks by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8012/7555 ... 88c7_z.jpg" width="640" height="359" alt="Als week ago this youngest grond showed no growth in previous five weeks"></a>

leaves reopened

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7555548464/" title="Sabal minor aan week after toedeling the roots and replanting in tightly packed mud by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8149/7555 ... be24_z.jpg" width="640" height="359" alt="Sabal minor aan week after toedeling the roots and replanting in tightly packed mud"></a>

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:20 am

lucky1 wrote:
gpenny, yes we had an interesting discussion somewhere here a couple years ago about pot planting.
Seems some people take the instructions too literally

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6801360666/" title="001 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7054/6801 ... 87ef_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="001"></a>

Keep us updated Adam on its continued recovery.

Barb

\\\\

Good one!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:16 pm

Adam, excellent news!

So...watering the hell out of it is probably going to be normal operating procedure.

Glad to see spears moving and leaves reopened.

Barb

seedscanada · Post by **seedscanada** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Sabal minor improved its rate of growth and overall appearance
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7884952566/" title="Lincoln-20120826-01032 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8461/7884 ... 74fd_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120826-01032"></a>

Almost 4 inches of new growth in less than 2 months
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/seedscanada/7884954546/" title="Lincoln-20120826-01031 by seedscanada, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8174/7884 ... 6756_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Lincoln-20120826-01031"></a>

So it is much happier, I have better drainage now and I water even deeper. It is planted roots packed in the ground so tight, I bet it thinks it is still in the pot.
Two months ago, here's Adam punching and kicking the soil up against the potbound rootball, "don't die, don't die!"

andym · Post by **andym** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:56 pm

Adam.... glad to see you have progress with your Sabal. Just one word of warning with the Minor.... they don't like wind. In heavy winds the fan leaf gets twisted on the petiole. Mine arrived from a nursery in a bad state from wind damage

Hmmmmm.... Have to say it looked in better condition then back in January than it does now

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:05 pm

You have found the secret of growing sabal minor. Congrats!
I have sandy soil which I added a bunch of compost to. I water mind frequently and I don't get really hot here.
Maybe 80 to 85 as a high most of the summer but I do get really good growth on my sabal minors.
I have one in full bloom right now so I will have lots of seeds.
When I see fronds like yours were it usually means two things, under watering or soil that is not retaining the moisture or signs of cold weather. It obviously is not the second so I believe it was your clay soil.
Glad to see it looking so healthy.