Dieback Perennial palms my experiment.

[sashaeffer]

In "Palms won't grow here" by Dave Francko he discusses certain palms as potential die back perennials and was wondering if anyone has tried this before in zones 5-7?

After reading his book and being able to usually find the palms he describes for sale in the off season for almost next to nothing thought I would give it a try. I have pics and types of palms here and will see how they grow in the ground this season, and more importantly if they come back next spring after following Dave Francko's advice. Other than the $15 I paid for the larger Chinese Fan palms(2) I didn't spend over $5 for the others, and usually less than $2. I figured if nothing else not out of much money as I'd spend it on annuals anyway.

Using 2 "Cat" palms, one by the toughshed(faces North) because it will get shade 90% of the day, and ground almost always stays moist there and the other in the shade next to the house by front pond along with one of the Chinese Fan palms. This faces the west and the Chinese will get a fair amount of sun, while the Cat total shade. Also planted Windmill palm in the ground with root ball surrounded by heat tape for winter. This palm was there last year but it was still in pot just sunk in the ground.

Other Chinese fan next to house on SE facing side. Should do well there and has the little Needle Palm I got from Jungle Music as company.

Palm in mulch area next to stream is my .99 Majesty. While it's not part of the "die back list" I thought it would be happier in the ground where it can get lots of sun most of the day. All have been in the ground over a week now and didn't show any signs of transplant shock.

Anxious to see how they all do this spring and summer.

[TerdalFarm]

Keep us updated.
Personally, I'm very dubious. I've read the same part of Francko's book and don't believe it, especially for such outlandish possibilities as PDP.

However, there was a house in Tulsa, in a great microclimate, that got a Livistonia to come back like a perrenial after a mild winter. When it wouldn't (most years), they just bought a new one.

[sashaeffer]

Well I think it says in the book even that if you can keep them alive for 3 seasons then chances of long term survival are pretty good..unless of course we get a winter totally opposite of the one we all just had.

It's not hard to experiment when the plants are cheap. Lowe's in particular will always have a pallet of 80-90% off tropicals.

I have a duel 7 foot+ Majesty that is inside I got there for just $2, just because it outgrew the pot it was in and one of the two plants fell over and appeared to be broke off, but it wasn't

I don't see the deals now when I go, but will always watch for them in the off season.

[TimMAz6]

Nice garden Scott. Keep us updated on how they fair in your climate.

I'd also try as Washy robusta and Washy filifera with some trunk protection since they will grow fast in your summer heat.

[lucky1]

Great pics and yard Scott.
Re the mulch...if it's higher on the trunk than the soil was, just pull an inch of it away around the trunk.
Most plants including palms can handle some soil loss around the trunk (as would occur with erosion), but start to suffer with soil or mulch added several inches higher than previous soil level.
Fine if it's just over winter, but then it has to be pulled back to normal.

If I could get palms that cheap, I'd use them as annuals too.
Nice tropical feel and look.

The heat tap around your Trachy roots...you'll have to protect the developing bud over winter too.
Maybe with additional pipe heat tape and a small structure?

I'm with Erik on the Francko book.
Nevertheless, we were honoured to have the good doctor participate in a PN discussion several years ago.
That was the year my NainiTal didn't make it, but I suspected the Freeze Pruf was the culprit...plus no heat inside the sparse cover.

Good idea Tim for Scott to try Washies, W.filifera would be great to watch there.

Barb

[sashaeffer]

Barb,

I will build a structure similar to the one I build with PVC for my other much smaller Trachy that made it through winter. I used heat tape around the root ball on that one too, as well as C7 Christmas lights. That Palm was much more naturally protected than this other one I planted so will have to take more steps to protect it.

[JackLord]

I think it can "work" if you cut everything down after the first frost and then cover what is left up with a thick, thick layer of mulch and maybe something else. Kind of like what some of us do to our bananas rather than building a shelter.

Thing is, if it survives, it will probably take a while for it to grow back to anything that looks presentable. By the time it is looking good again, you will have to chop and cover. You might be better served keeping it potted and burying it every Spring and then taking it in again before the frost.

Or you can shelter it. I sometimes ponder our limits. If you have to keep a palm in a shelter each and every winter, can you upgrade out of the subset of cold hardies?

Different approaches, different goals. Always fun to experiment.

[sashaeffer]

Exactly! and if something is learned from it then it all becomes worthwhile.

I did bury all of these in their pots but....since they were thinned walled plastic grow pots I cut out the bottom so hopefully roots will be more encouraged to grow DOWN...in theory anyway, but also slit the side of the pot along a line, but not top to bottom so in time it could break though the pot easily if it gets root bound. I was hoping that the plastic to some degree the first winter would offer a level of cold protection, and increase survivability if indeed the roots go deeper into the ground. We have Loess soil where we live so it should be easy for them to grow deeper.

[sashaeffer]

Chinese fan palm faces SE and did well over the summer. Like others in the ground is enjoying the cool break in the weather and pushing a lot of new shoots from the ground.





Cat Palm faces the North and was in shade 90% of the summer days. Looks the best of all the die back palms I planted. Lots of new growth on this one too.





Mexican fan palm. Bought 3, but only this one is in the ground facing the South that I will build a structure to protect. All 3 were same size but this one has the most significant growth as the other two are planted in their pots in the gound and will bring in the greenhouse for the winter.





Another Cat palm tucked against the corner of the house and garage. Faces the NW, shady there with no real summer heat damage.





Another Chinese fan palm that got more sun that I thought it would and suffered this hot dry summer. Like others lots of nice new shoots coming up from the base.

All of these palms except the Mexican Fan Palm, I will cut down to the ground after the hard frost gets them, and cover in mulch, and then put a bag of mulch laying over the top of it for further protection. We'll see if any come back in the spring and will let everyone know!

[lucky1]

Scott, good to see your update.

You're smart to keep the hot sun off the Cat palms...they love lots of water and can't handle direct sun/brutal heat.
My Cat palm is RIP.

The Mexican fan sure did well there.

My Chinese fan (in a pot) got so sunburned last year, all the fronds went crispy brown.
Looked totally fried.
Kept it cool all winter, bright light, and presto, it's coming back beautifully albeit slowly.

Barb

[sashaeffer]

Barb, we had such an abnormal Summer. Almost no rain, and not even cloudy days to minimize the sun scorch. Even Banana's in the ground got scorched and didn't grow right.

I just hope the palms come back in the spring. I will pour mulch over the tops of them when I cut them to the ground then lay a full closed bag of mulch over the top of that as their winter protection. All are next to the house except the one by the Tuff Shed that faces North.

[lucky1]

pour mulch over the tops of them when I cut them to the ground then lay a full closed bag of mulch over the top

Hey Scott,
you had such success with your PVC/C-7/plastic dome...you don't want to repeat it for the rest?

I always think it's hard on a palm to be cut back, especially drastically.

Barb

[sashaeffer]

There isn't the exact right kind of PVC fittings to make it right really. Works ok when small, but not when I have to make it bigger. I will use it again for the Windmill I have on that side as the windmill never really grew any taller, just fuller. It took a beating by the direct sun too.

I saw a youtube video on how a guy used heavy duty wire fence in 5ft tall sections that he simply had to add sections as his palm grew (it was about 16-20ft?) He just simply slid a newly made section up over the lower section (not end to end though) but left enough overlap to it would be stable. He then wrapped the entire thing in plastic and put plastic cover over the top and I assume some sort of heat.

[lucky1]

Scott, if you get hold of that Youtube link again, please post it.

There isn't the exact right kind of PVC fittings to make it right really

Speaking of that, there's a guy...think it was in Pennsylvania ??? that DID find all the right PVC fittings.
His palms were 15 or 20 feet tall and he closed them in every year.
Heated them with C7s or C9s and then I think 2 layers of plastic as well as styrofoam panels.
I remember being really impressed with how quickly he got the protection up in Fall.

I think they were Washys.

Anybody remember that link? (not the guy building the Tiki hut, I don't think).

Barb

[sashaeffer]

Yea Barb I have pics of that guys set up. Very impressive! He's in Lancaster, PA

[sashaeffer]

Barb,

Here is that link I FINALLY found lol, While this is the same guy and palm tree the video I first watched the tree was taller, so this video is old, but you can see the general idea on protection.

http://youtu.be/JNLHmu7ABuU


Same guy, but with Mexican fan palms.

http://youtu.be/dv3AIjtSSxg


Simply listed on youtube as Trachy Uncover 2011.mp4

[dukeofdoom]

I think this is his website:

http://home.ptd.net/~mishele/webpage/index.htm



"Here on the east coast, there are extremely few examples of long term surviving unprotected trunking palms even a full zone warmer than we are here in 6b..."

"My whole reason for growing palms is NOT to push the zone limit or to have bragging rights about keeping a sorry looking specemin alive. My goal is to have good looking palms and to get that I'm willing to go the extra mile to make it happen.""

[bgodwin1987]

I had a Chinese Fan palm I left outside over the winter in a pot and it to my surprise started to grow again come spring after withstanding 13 F potted. So they are pretty cold hardy. I was going to plant it in the ground but I never did. I am gonna try to take it in this winter though and plant it outside in the spring.

[lucky1]

THAT'S IT, guys!

I had forgotten it was the guy with the Tiki Hut.
Yes that was the Mexican Fan Palms video, showing the PVC structure on the raised brick planter, that I remember.
I think the wire cage Trachy one is a bad idea for windy areas.
Something's gotta anchor it into the ground for snowload during winter storms.

Thanks for finding that, you two!

Bryce, it survived 13F? wow.
It'll be interesting to see what temps it's exposed to the first winter it's planted.

Barb