"De-Lidding" speeds up germination!

[lucky1]

...sometimes overnight!

Sounds like these guys are onto something:

Be sure to read all the posts...one or two of the photo "techniques" didn't work.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php ... 0844&st=40

Barb

[Wenike]

Very interesting posts...I may try this myself with a few seeds I have left.

[lucky1]

Had to try de-lidding.

Foxtail seeds about 10 weeks. Others are already up 2-3 inches.

Rubbed them hard on 80- and 46-grit sandpaper, then dipped in bleach water.
Think the white dots are sand from the paper. Utility knife carved small circle in outer seedcoat, which wasn't firm.
Hope the embryo is just beneath the scraping. The IPS guys actually cut all the way through but I didn't want to risk damaging the embryo.





And OOPS! the following fell out during scraping with knife. Tossed it out.


Another OOPS...Didn't think it had popped.


Placed them into pre-warmed and dampened perlite in a large baggie, set over germinating pad


It was fun...now the wait.
Barb

[hardyjim]

Beautiful arrangement!

[sashaeffer]

Did they germinate in just the Perlite?

Trying to figure out what soil medium I should use for the seeds I'm getting. I do have 1 big bag of Spagam Peat Moss.

Can I just use that and some good organic potting soil and maybe some sand mixed together?

I plan on also getting those "germination trays" with the clear lid on top of grow mat that I have yet to buy and put in inside greenhouse.

[TimMAz6]

cool looking seed. Any update photos of those babies?

[seedscanada]

any pictures on delidding trachycarpus?
Adam

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

Adam, I have a few pictures of de-lidded Trachycarpus in my threat called "Beginning the germination process". However, in general, Trachycarpus are relatively fast to germinate, so for the most part, de-lidding isn't really necessary with them. Also, as Damir pointed out in his takil thread, depending on what species of seed you're trying to de-lid, the embryos can be in different spots (i.e. in the crease for fortunei vs in the round side for true takil).

[lucky1]

Any update photos of those babies?

Tim, here ya go.

This was last year.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/5309526295/" title="DSC04251 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5284/5309 ... 5cb8_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC04251"></a>

Scott, I tried several methods and the least successful for me was baggies with 100% perlite...too dry I think.
but others swear by the technique.

1 big bag of Spagam Peat Moss.
Can I just use that and some good organic potting soil and maybe some sand mixed together?

yup, try several mixtures/methods.
that's why it's good to get, say, 10, 20 or 50 seeds and as Cameron suggests, sacrifice one or two to see where the embryo is, try delidding, etc.
But if you want to use a perlite product (gets expensive), you can use undeodorized kitty litter.
Make sure it's UNUSED (by a cat)

"germination trays" with the clear lid on top of grow mat

That'll work...to a degree.
But palms tend to put out very long "taproot" (first root) and will almost immediately outgrow the germination tray.
Many palms send out a long root, like Jubaea does, without any sign of a leaf/spear aboveground.
Some do spear/root growth at virtually the same time.

Barb

[lucky1]

Scott, I meant to post this to show why germination tray will very quickly be too shallow.

Foxtail,snapped off tap root tip as I was removing it from germinating medium.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/4259567049/" title="DSC03254 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4032/4259 ... 0391_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC03254"></a>

[sashaeffer]

For the larger seeds like the foxtail I did buy bigger grow pots that I will sit in warming mat/tray. The"cells" of the plant tray are pretty small.


As an experiment I put a 60W in a reflective hood and put at bottom rack of inside green house to see what temps it would get to (for at night if I didn't use grow mats in the green house) Lowest temp at top shelf was 72 and warmest was shelf right above bulb and it was just 75deg. I don't think warm enough to germinate seeds?

[lucky1]

Yeah, I like the expandable peat pots but not the plant tray for that very reason.
Those shallow plant trays are good for stuff like flower and veggie seeds.

72F is good, palm seeds just take a bit longer.
But that's still warmer than just relying on overnight house temps.

I now use the germinating mat only for soaking seeds in bowls of water.
Mat space quickly fills up with seeds in yoghurt containers.
That's why my basement woodstove is such a benefit, lots of space around it.
Temps often 85-95 near it.

Barb

[sashaeffer]

I just stopped at home and checked and the inserts that I bought separate (18 larger cells vs 72 small ones) will fit right into the heated tray. The clear top will work too for a while, but on the 18 cell tray it doesn't provide the extra height, but by the time seeds germinate I will take cover off anyways and leave them sealed up in the free standing mini greenhouse.

It was funny, 1 Germination mat was $19 by itself, but mat with tray, cover etc is $18....so bought two.

[lucky1]

Even before seeds germinate, remove cover daily for an hour and check for fungus/mold.

but mat with tray, cover etc is $18....so bought two.

Good deal, Scott.\
They're ~$35 here...sheesh.

[sashaeffer]

Barb, foxtail seeds in your picture look good and dark. Ones I received were brown. Also, all of them floated after I sanded down the one end, so don't know how they'll do. I assume that all seeds are supposed to sink if they are fresh?

[lucky1]

look good and dark. Ones I received were brown

Mine are brown too, dark brown.
Probably just a different seed source thingy, or maybe ripeness?
And different species have different traits.

When seeds arrive, they're usually dry from storage/shipping.
But quickly re-hydrate when floating in water.
I think of Cocos (coconut) seeds, those big things that look like footballs, I think nature intends them to float to another island and then sprout when they land on another sandy beach.

I've planted some palm seeds that were floaters, some came up.
Some sinkers didn't germinate, so doubt it's a reliable indicator.

I just plant them all.

Patience, grasshopper

Barb

[sashaeffer]

Oh, I will. I read Phil's article about germination and it said that "most" seeds will sink as a sign of freshness. Naturally there was no list of seeds that would float.

When I did my sanding(tough seeds!!) I didn't go too deep, but just to the point where I could feel the soft membrane of the embryo.

[lucky1]

Deep isn't necessary because you just want to soften the hard coat, not damage anything inside.
And, by the way, this isn't "de-lidding", it's just sanding to move the process along faster.

Barb

[damir]

what a beautiful "design of the seed" it looks cool.

[lucky1]

I agree Damir,

Foxtail seeds' intricate patterns are truly nature's artwork.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/4279357978/" title="DSC03257 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4057/4279 ... 569d_z.jpg" width="640" height="486" alt="DSC03257"></a>

Barb