Microclimate

Alchris · Post by **Alchris** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:30 am

I've spent most of the winter so far researching the climate in my part of Edmonton.

I have found that The city airport temperatures are about 3 C above the temperatures at the International airport.

I have 2 microclimate areas on the south side of my house which are about 3 C warmer than the airport at all times. The high temperatures can be up to 12 C higher if we get low winds and a lot of sun. I was surprised that the S wall of my garage was not as warm as I expected. the unheated garage moderated the daily temperature change and only gained about 1 C over the lows at the city airport. It also moderaed major changes in temperature from day to day. It was not affected very much by sunny days even though the area is protected from winds..

Over the last 5 years the temperature has only been below -30 C(-20 F) 3 times(only 1 time in the microclimates).

All of this means that my 2 microclimates are zone 5a with 1 day every 5 years where protection is needed. I will need to raise the temperature in the palm houses only about 15 degrees C to protect Trachys and about 10 C for Sabals. The sun should do most of this making the cost relatively low for supplemental heating.

This also means that I won't be putting the Sabals against the garage wall as a backdrop for the little pond. Does anyone have any suggestions what I could plant. I need something exotic looking about 4' tall with a 3' spread that will survive in Zone 5.

Allen

ryan · Post by **ryan** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:57 am

Your best bet is a rhapidophyllum hystrix which the hardiest shrub palm. You should have no problem keeping this plant alive in your zone with protection. The easiest protection method is to put a light bulb in a plastic garbage pale that has been flipped over. I have a 60 watt bulb in my pale which keeps the temperature about 12C above ambient temperature. I'm looking at my wireless thermometer and it reads 8c, it is -9C outside. This method is soooo easy its ridiculous, no wire cages, no elaborate structures whatsoever, but only works if the plants are under 3' tall. When the temperature warms up just remove the pale!

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:32 am

I agree if you want some thing tropical looking a needle palm fits the bill.
Ryan,
I use this same method less the light bulb for many of my small more tender palms. It really does work well. I have over wintered chamaedora radicalis and microspadix seedlings and brahea armata small seedlings using this method. I have used it on very small trachycarpus fortunei and rhapidophyllum hystrix but I haven't the last two years and they are fine without any protection here. I will use this method to protect my new cycas panzehensis next winter.

ryan · Post by **ryan** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:08 am

Wes,

It's nice to see someone else using this simple method. It is fool proof and it keeps the plants protected and dry, which is important in winter. When my T. fortunei gets larger I will upgrade to a larger pale. I am also trying to source out a producer of clear garbage pales to allow light in. I have not had any luck finding one yet.

PALMETTOMAN · Post by **PALMETTOMAN** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:08 pm

Alchris,

Yup..you can even create your own microclimates...

I would try the needle palm since its about the hardiest (not to mention the most expensive) of the lot...

The europalm is another one that I have come to appreciate for its cold hardiness..

I have 4 nice sized Euros and they are garaged at temps which have hit -5C for a few nites..so far so good...I just have some grow lites on them and their off the cement...This is around yr 4 for them so they are now used to the cold and they'll be ready for permanent planting this spring. They were potted this yr in my beds April to Dec...The flood lites did the trick on cold nites and worked till the winds came....

Using Ryan's method sounds interesting and is worth a try for the smaller hardy palms. I've been researching a product at the Home Depot called Suntuf, polycarbonate panels..I will be building my palm structure's out of this material as well as a covered 16' by 16' lean off my kitchen this spring...

I plan on raising my outdoor palms (trachys & euros), off the ground about 1.5 feet in stone beds...and in selected microclimate areas around the lot...

Good luck..

Palmettoman z6-Ajax, On

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:11 pm

You guys are certifiable! Man those are some crazy conditions to deal with. If I was way up north in Edmonton, I'd just head for the West Edmonton Mall to get my palm fix. Hats off to you cold growers!

Cheers, Barrie.

ryan · Post by **ryan** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:27 am

PALMETTOMAN,

If your looking for polycarbonate panals I would buy them from warehouse plastics in scarborough. The material from this company will be cost less then home depot and they will cut it to size. They also carry Polycarbonate Twin-wall for greenhouses.

Here's the link: http://www.wps.on.ca

Alchris · Post by **Alchris** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:50 am

Barry; that would be easy if they would just let me hang my hammock in the mall. I have a gazebo near where my palms will be going. I plan to lay back in my hammock and gaze at my palms through my climbing roses( with a Rickerts Red in my hand). That will be hard to duplicate at the mall.

I like the idea of a garbage can for obvious reasons. The only problem for me would be having it in use almost all winter. Cutting the base to allow it to be pried up for ventilation and lining it with bubble wrap may help. Cutting 5 or 6 3" vertical strips out of the front of the can and taping 6mil poly(doubled up-right off of the roll) to the inside should retain the structural integrity while maintaining stackability and providing light.

Ryan; what size garbage pail are you using with the 60 watt light?

Does anyone have experience with how cold a Chamerops humulus or Butia capitata can withstand without damage?

I appreciate the suggestion of the needle palm. There is something about it that turns me off. Does anyone have any other suggestions. It doesn't have to be a palm.

thanks

Allen

PALMETTOMAN · Post by **PALMETTOMAN** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:09 am

Thanks Ryan...I really appreciate your help... I will check em out...I'm budgeted at $1500 or so...I plan to plant some permanent hardy's in this 16 by 16 as well as leave it partially open for the spring, summer and fall..etc...

Alchris...Go with Yucca Glauca or soapweed as an alternative to a palm...I think it hardy to Z3 or Z4...

Butia's are hardy but I found the Euro's hardier (clumping type palm) and easier to protect...

My Butia's (potted in beds), lasted outside here to early December at about -5C...no real damage...They would have lasted longer with our mild start to winter but the wind started to beat them up...

Euro's were unfazed by the wind...I'll post some pics later to show you...

Palmettoman z6-Ajax, On

ryan · Post by **ryan** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:55 am

Palmettoman,

I not sure what you are planning for supports, but metal supermarket has dozens of aluminum extrusions that will hold 10mm twin-wall poly nice and tight. You can also try almag extrusions.

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:46 am

What about using cannas or hedychiums. They will have to be cut down and then removed each fall but they grow quickly in the spring and the leaves looked good most of the year. You can get them in the size you want and they get great looking flowers also.
Another suggestion would musella lasiocarpa but this would require significant protection and on those extremely cold nights supplemental heat.
Just an idea.
If you want something permanent then I would use yuccas or rhodos. If the area is dry maybe even some cactus like optunia

ryan · Post by **ryan** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:55 am

Alchris,

If you don't like R. hytrix then plant the S. minor to see how it performs in your microclimate.

Alchris · Post by **Alchris** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:24 pm

Thanks for the advice. I think that I will see if I can get Hedychium or Musella lasiocarpa.

I will use my desert for more yuccas and cacti and I already have 4 Rhodos.

Palmettoman; How low of a temperature has your Chamerops experienced? I look forward to the pictures.

Again - Thanks

Allen

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:00 pm

You can pic up both here in Vancouver. You will see them in almost all of the nurseries. Or you can buy them on line from Tropics to tropics or maybe Barrie has some.
If all fails I can pick some up for you and get it sent to your place.
The best and most reliable hedychium is Tara. It always blooms and is quite cold hardy.
Here are some pics of mine in bloom.

Alchris · Post by **Alchris** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:26 pm

Thanks Wes. The pic is really welcome. That is exactly what we want. I hope that the Tara doesn't grow higher than 3 feet.

There is not much hope to get it locally so I will try Kelowna Barry as I am going to be getting some palms from him in the spring. I appreciate your offer and I may take you up on it if I can't get it from Tropic to Tropic or either Barry.

Allen

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:33 pm

"Does anyone have experience with how cold a Chamaerops humilis or Butia capitata can withstand without damage?" (quote with spelling corrected)

They are both limited to about -11c ( on mature palms.) roughly for brief spells. Temps should rebound close to at least zero celcius the following day. Repeated episodes are more damaging. Smaller palms wouldn't manage quite that cold. Much depends on the soil they're planted in and soil moisture. Mine are always appreciative of plenty of warm to hot summer sun.

Cheers, Barrie

PALMETTOMAN · Post by **PALMETTOMAN** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:54 pm

Alchris,

My Euro's-chaemerops humilus are now garaged..The absolute lowest temp. they were exposed to garaged was -8C (nite-time)...a few nites straight.... with no wind chill.

They all handled to -6C (lows) this past December outside for 3-4 nites...no protection...slight wind chill...They were planted in raised beds....

I think they are easy to protect and are somewhat more wind tolerant because of their clumping format?

I am looking forward this year to finally sitting them in the damn ground where they belong!...with protection....

The butia in the picture handled the same temps but...I found the northwest wind began to beat it up...

Its garaged now and a few nites of -6C...haven't really fazed this palm or the others?

Ryan,

Thanks again...I plan on building my frame from pressure treated wood...and framing it with the panels..

Palmettoman z6-Ajax, On

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2096105644

tropicman · Post by **tropicman** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:30 pm

Check this site for info on cold hard palms and evergreens.
http://www.neotropic.com/catalog/catalog_list.htm

PalmsNorth.com

Microclimate

Microclimate

Plant to use

micros and palm protection

winter protections/hardy plants

Allen

Allen

To Alchris (Allen)

euro palm-chaemerops/butia