Trachy germination area

[wxman]

Worked on building my trachy grow area today. I built a three level shelf in my basement. It is 8 feet in length, 2 feet wide and I set up two of the three levels with lights so far. The top level I installed (2) 4 ft long fluorescent lights and put 6500K bulbs in. It will get a little natural light at that level from a basement window. The middle level I installed (4) 4 ft long fluorescent lights and also put in 6500K bulbs. I still need to install (4) 4 ft long lights on the bottom shelf.

Each shelf is 2 feet tall so they should provide plenty of height room for trachy seedlings. Now, according to my math, if I used 4 inch pots, I should be able to get 144 trachys per shelf (each shelf is 8 ft x 2 ft). So utilizing all 3 shelves, I can sustain 432 trachys.

My question for you guys: how large of a trachy can I grow in a 4 inch pot? I plan on growing from seed to sell. If I used 3 inch pots, I could get 256 per shelf and 768 total, but that seems too small of a pot.

I was hoping to have 1000 on hand at a time, but I may be out of luck with my room. I was hoping to grow them large enough to sell for $15.00 a piece.

Here are pictures of my setup.

[lucky1]

Great sized seedling bench.

I was trying to find a pic of deeper seedling pots to picture here.
So I searched "palm seedling pots" on Google Images.
Guess what popped up as the first photo?
Mine! (those big slurp cups)

http://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&cl ... 60&bih=708

7/11 must be wondering why people want their cups, and not the Slurpee in them...

Anyway, 4-inch wide pots are perfect, but buy the deepest ones you can find.
Young palm roots go straight down before much (if any) horizontal growth takes place.

My big slurp cups are just shy of 10 inches tall and when I up-potted my Foxtail seedlings, long roots were curled around the bottom, or trying to get out the drain hole.

Are you using heat tape like Cameron used? or germinating mats?

IMO, you'll be up-potting at least once, probably twice.
Besides, larger pots make plants look more valuable...I wouldn't pay 15 bucks for a palm in a 4-inch pot.
(OK I would if it was a seedling Licuala grandis).

Great project Tim...look forward to more pics.
Barb

[wxman]

Barb,

I want to grow them until they have character leaves. You think $15 a piece is too much at that size? I'm trying to find a marketable size/price combo that will yield best results for me. Maybe you can share some insight on that?

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

Wxman, I will give you what little advice I am able to

Unless your basement is quite cold, you shouldn't need any heat tape if you just plan on germinating T. fortunei.

You should be fine with using 4" wide pots, but as Barb said, get the deepest ones that you can. There is a business in Oregon called Steuwe (spelling?) that has a decent selection and decent prices. You will be surprised how large roots can be, even on seedling trachys.

You will want to leave at least an inch of space between the top of the soil and the top of the pot. I say this because if you are going to use tap water to water the palms, over time, salts and other minerals will build up at the top of the soil, and it will look white-ish and brittle. Every month or so, you could just add a few mm of soil to each pot, and this should prevent the top from absorbing too many tap water minerals.

Re-potting will be a pain, so if you can get very deep pots (i.e. 8"+), you might be able to avoid this. Just drop 1 seed into each pot, and let it do its thing. If you start them now, you could sell them during this coming spring (as I did). If you're waiting for a first true leaf to appear, you might be waiting for 2 years or more. Also, you could consider selling a portion as time goes on, and keeping the other portion to grow true leaves. This way, you could make changes to your growing area/techniques as you go, instead of waiting for 2+ years to have final results from one batch of seedlings. When selling at smaller sizes, you should probably lower the price to $5/each, and $10/each when they are 2 years old. Maybe you should consider selling some different types of hardier trachy (i.e. Trachycarpus fortunei "Tesan", "Naini Tal", etc.). If you post ads online for your plants, people will research them, and if they see the same variety that you're selling available at other areas, they might not purchase yours. Luckily, in my area of Canada, I don't really have this problem

Also, you should consider using some type of kelp-based fertilizer. I've found that it really helps speed seedlings along.

That's it!! It will be interesting to see how your project progresses through the years! Good luck!

Cameron.

[wxman]

Cameron,

Thanks for the input! I was thinking of germinating them in a common tupperware container and then transplanting once the majority are up. I was planning on using a sterilized peat moss / perlite combination. The tupperware container would allow me to cover them with a lid until they germinate. My basement remains between 60 and 62F in the winter, although under the lights it could maybe creep toward 64 or 65F.

Does this sound like a good idea? I thought maybe they would dry out too fast if I try to germinate them in open pots.

Also, any recommendations for something to put under them to catch water from watering? A dish under each pot seems like a lot of work.

[canadianplant]

Nice dude!!!!! Ive seen a few set ups like that but, they werent for palm trees

I have something similar in my room ATM. Just a few old aquarium light fixtures. It worked quite good last year. Its great to start veggies for the spring, and my ginkgo seedlings are loving it!!!. All of my trachy seeds sprouted indoors, with room temp. Nothing germinated outside in the shade all summer.

In my experience, Trachys will germinate at normal room temp (60 - 65F), just a bit slower then with some heat. IIR right, they dont like to much heat to germinate either. Try to keep temps around 20 C or so (the 60 - 65F) and by february, you should have some babies!

[oppalm]

good luck wxman. I am guessing a Trachy Fortunei growing operation will keep you busy for winter. In my area of the midwest many stores (Home Depot, Lowes, True Value Hardwarde) are beginning to carry cold hardy palms, i.e. trachys, mediterranean fan palm and needle palms and they are selling nice sized 5 gallon varieties for $29.95 and at the end of the season for $19.95. I am guessing these palms have to be 4-5 years old. Each part of the country is duifferent though.

[hardyjim]

He can sell them in front of his house...
having Trachys planted is the best advertisement-ask Bill

[lucky1]

Ditto Cameron's tips, Tim.
After all, he started -- what -- a thousand or two thou seeds last year?

something to put under them to catch water from watering?

I germinated a lot of my stuff (on the concrete basement floor).
Saucers/drain pots seemed like a lot of work to me, too.

So I unrolled the double layer of 6 ml plastic on the floor (roll was 4 feet wide, perfect!).
Then I used sections of rolled up newspaper taped under plastic's perimeters to make a 1-inch "wall" to catch water.

The only reason I suggested heat germinating mats (even for Trachies) is you want reliable and quick germination.
The goal is to get them to a saleable size months ahead of ones whose seeds took 4, 5 or 6 months to germinate naturally.
I started my T. princeps in the warm basement last winter, albeit further away from the woodstove than the Foxtails were the winter previous.
Worked like a charm.

Agree that your Trachies in the yard are the best example (to prospective customers) of what these Palms grow into in a few years.
As a result you may be able to get $15 for them sooner than a retail nursery who just plunks the potted palms into rows in the sale yard.

Great project.
Barb

[lucky1]

(I hit Submit too early, LOL).

These guys that Cameron recommended (in Oregon) have great stuff.

http://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php

Their deepest seedling pot is 16 inches, which is perfect.
Would save you from one complete up=potting, but then the NEXT pot size up would be a 5 gallon because a 2 gallon pot is only just 9 inches tall.

BUT:
Since 2 gallon pots are only 23 cm 9 inches, I'd recommend (for next year's up-potting), you use what I did.
Cheaper than borscht, sometimes FREE.
These 25 cm (10 inches tall) "florist fresh flower black pots"...just drill one big drain hole in the bottom of each.
Your Safeway florist probably has 500 of those black pots she's trying to get rid of.
Good person to get to know.

I know putting a seedling with 16 inch roots into a 10 inch tall (FREE MAYBE) florist pot sounds like a math impossibility, but you can gently angle/bend the root area.

Here's my seedlings from 10 inch slurp cups with a "florist black pot" beside it.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/5353157517/" title="DSC04283 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5209/5353 ... c7fc_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC04283"></a>

Bet someone would pay $15.00 for a palm in that black pot (versus a seedling pot).

The one real risk in using those florist pots for 1 year old seedlings is there's a lot of soil.
So to prevent root rot, use the grittiest gravelly soil mix you can find so it drains really really well.
I'd recommend a soil mix with NO peat moss/NO sand at all.

Here's my palm roots:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/2887935769/" title="DSC01690 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3204/2887 ... c88d_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC01690"></a>

That's why palm pots are always much deeper (or should be) than wide:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/2187822251/" title="DSC00819 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2352/2187 ... 8cb0_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC00819"></a>

...plus you can plan your website during winter.
As though your honey-do list isn't long enough already.

Barb

[gpenny]

Your setup should work fine. For catching water under the pots I use the plastic trays from Tractor Supply that go under rabbit cages. They come in several sizes and are fairly cheap. If you don't care about looks I also use the aluminum trays used for cooking turkeys etc. to set pots in. We have about 30 setting around from past holidays! As for selling I have great response from my local Craig's List (and it's free!).

[wxman]

Barb,

Thanks so much for all that information. It will definitely come in handy!

Now ... the seeds should be here any day. They will still have the fruit on the outside. Do you guys recommend cleaning it off, or planting as is like in nature?

And should I plant them in a common pot -- was thinking cheap tupperware container that I can put a lid on.

Or should I plant them in their individual pots (1 per pot)?

Let me know.

Thanks.

[canadianplant]

Barb,

Thanks so much for all that information. It will definitely come in handy!

Now ... the seeds should be here any day. They will still have the fruit on the outside. Do you guys recommend cleaning it off, or planting as is like in nature?

And should I plant them in a common pot -- was thinking cheap tupperware container that I can put a lid on.

Or should I plant them in their individual pots (1 per pot)?

Let me know.

Thanks.

I think planting with the fruit can cause mold. The sugars tend to cause that sort of thing IIR. I have bad luck cleaning seeds so hopefully someone here can be of more help.

For palm seeds most people seem to use the baggy method. The description of how can be found online, but its simply a community bag, rather then a pot. IF you do start them one per pot, and use decent sized pots, you will cause less stress to the plant.

[lucky1]

They will still have the fruit on the outside. Do you guys recommend cleaning it off, or planting as is like in nature?

Jim or Cameron might be the ones to answer that because they've done a lot of Trachies.
But:
My trachy seeds were fairly clean, they had only a papery sheath on them that needed to be rubbed/scraped off.
I soaked my seeds for a couple of days in a bowl of water to which I added about 2 tablespoons of 3% hydrogen peroxide.
After 2 days, just handling the seeds with a paper towel took off all the papery stuff.

With very large seeds (which Trachies are not), it's recommended to place them inside an old (very old) pillowcase, tie it tightly and put it through a hot water wash in the washing machine. Pillowcase gets thrown out after

I planted my Trachies in ice cream buckets (yoghurt or sour cream buckets) and, after one year, I still don't see roots through the opaque bottom.
But like I said re the Foxtails, they grew mammoth long roots in a year versus the Trachies so you might be OK with tupperware (your wife will kill you!)

If your Trachy seeds have more than papery sheaths on them (i.e. more pulp attached), you can run them over the fine side of a kitchen grater.
(wife will also kill you).
Method is hard on the fingernails and knuckles but it works.
But first I'd soak them for 2 days, see what comes off naturally.

Looking forward to your pics Tim.
Barb

[lucky1]

Tim you might find this interesting.
Says not to use mechanical methods (probably including the grater I recommended) as seeds could be damaged

http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/v ... ds#p176944

Barb

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

wxman, that sounds like a good mix. I think that if you've got enough peat in there, it should retain moisture easily once it's soaked, and you won't have to worry as much about them drying out. As far as a tray goes, you could simply use the tupperware container without the lid. It will catch all of the extra water/soil, and you can clean it out periodically.

Barb/wxman, although some sites say it's fine to germinate T. fortunei with the fruit/skin on, I always prefer to remove it, just to avoid the risk of mold. Barb's method should work well. If you don't have an old pillowcase, just put the seeds in a ziploc bag with a bit of water. Rub the seeds around in the ziploc bag, and this will gradually remove the fruit from the seed. Rinse out the bag, and keep repeating this until it's all removed!

[wxman]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions .. it really means a lot. I've never had luck with palm seeds before, so I'm hoping this is the ticket. My seeds came today and I poured them in a big mixing bowl.





Then I covered them with cold tap water. Look, no floaters!



So, should I change the water a few times a day and then after about 2 days, the flesh should come off fairly easy? I tried to get the flesh off one and it was almost like peeling a lemon. Hard to get off and came in little pieces.

[lucky1]

Sheesh, maybe I should shut up but only the dark ones are ripe seeds.

The dark ones will have the papery sheath that you can rub off after soaking for a while.

Everybody else here...PUHLEASE chime in!!!!

Barb

[Cameron_z6a_N.S.]

Barb/wxman, I have heard of green fortunei seeds germinating before. I think it was on the EPS forum, Jim might have some input on this too. You should probably just leave them in the water for a week or so, just to ripen a bit more.

[canadianplant]

Thats a lot of seeds


As far as I know, for palm sees, sinking = viable. Ive never had green seeds myself, but if you go with the "sinking = germination" way of thinking, they should sprout. I think maybe waiting a bit longer to plant them might be best.

Do change the water twice or 3 times a day, and rinse the seeds in warm water. I found that using the tap to rise the seeds in a sive got rid of lots of the paper that were on my trachy seeds. They were soaking for a week, changing the water once a day. Twice is better!

Ive had horrible luck with palm/banana seeds. Ive ordered probably over 60 packets and have only gotten maybe 6 or 7 that sprouted. My advice is make sure the medium isnt wet at all, it should be slightly drier then you expect (thats how I changed my luck!). Dont let the planting medium dry out, and you should be good!. the thing is, palm seeds can take a few days, to a few weeks to over a year to germinate. Dont loose patience. The best way to speed it up is to get the proper temps for germination. Check for mold every few weeks.

The real trick is making good planting medium. I usually just buy the miracle grow seed starting mix, which in my experience isnt to bad. Most palm nuts will tell you to make your own, usually 50/50 peat/perlite, but everyone seems to have their own mix.

Good luck dude!

[hardyjim]

The green ones may germinate but I would imagine the skin
will be hard to remove which may put you back at just planting
the darker ones that the skin comes off easily.

I like germinating mine in a large zip-lock baggie,half perlite/half
sterile sphagnum moss....this way I can keep an eye on them.
I usually pot up when the first seedling leaf is 1" so I can keep
an eye on it,I have potted to many seeds with a little root
(no leaf yet) on them that never grew and were never heard from again!

[garryendson]

I picked green T.fortunei seeds as early as in October and got not a bad germination.
So definitely green ones can be sprouting as well,but may not be as good as black ones in general.

[lucky1]

Whew, that's good to know (that green ones germinate too).

Come to think of it, John gave me some green C.humilis from his seed-set last year and two popped in no time at all.

Hey Tim, are the de-lidded ones popping?

Barb

[wxman]

Nothing is up from the soil yet. I have them in tupperware containers with saran wrap on top. Time will tell.

[lucky1]

Hope you've got more patience than me, Tim.

I drove myself crazy by peering at Trachy seeds twice a day.
So I got on with other stuff and forgot about them, and poof, up they came.

Barb

[TimMAz6]

any seeds sprouting yet? I have good luck at 75F to 80F. I use the plastic bag method with just moist peat moss ( soak moss in water then squeeze all water out with hands....very tight). This give just the right amount of moisture. I placed the plastic baggies in a larger cooler and placed a heating pad inside and set temp just below 80F. Germ in a couple to 4 weeks.