Uninsulated palm enclosures

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:48 pm

I opened up one of my uninsulated palm enclosures tonight to see how my experiment is going. Each of these windmill palms have just a 100 bulb string of mini lights wrapped around it on a 35/45 thermocube. The enclosure is double poly with an air gap in between. Minimum temperature in my yard so far this year has been 0.0F with one day not getting above 10F. It's been basically below freezing since I enclosed these palms just before Thanksgiving. The inside of the enclosure falls below freezing every night, usually to between 20-25F, although it was in the teens on the 0F night. During the day it rises to between 35-70F depending on if it's sunny or cloudy.

Some pics.

Little discoloration on the older frond tips, although some of that was there before I enclosed the palm. Newer fronds and spear still nearly totally green. Ground inside is slightly moist and not frozen anywhere. About two more months to go until protection is removed. I think windmill palms are bulletproof providing they get above freezing during the day and kept dry.

Here's a pic of what they look like during the day.

<a href="http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/w ... a8ec0f.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/w ... a8ec0f.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:01 pm

Wow, very cool Wxman! Way to go.
Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:08 pm

Thanks for sharing, and keep us updated. --Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:25 pm

Since only about half of the 100 bulbs are showing around fronds, the rest are laying on the ground (warming around drip zone to keep soil from freezing?)
Good result so far with your temps.

Oh...that P. sylvestris

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:44 pm

lucky1 wrote:Since only about half of the 100 bulbs are showing around fronds, the rest are laying on the ground (warming around drip zone to keep soil from freezing?)
Good result so far with your temps.

Oh...that P. sylvestris

Half are around the fronds and half are around the trunk. None are on the ground, I don't want to cook the feeder roots. Soil remains unfrozen from solar insolation. I could take out the lights and the soil would remain unfrozen in those boxes. Soil needs to be 32F to freeze, if the enclosure is 70 during the day and 0 at night, the mean temp is 35F which yields unfrozen soil.

If only trachys could deal with 0.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:10 am

After seeing your pics Tim it got me thinking what mine might be looking like inside. So I thought I would unwrap a bit to see. This is what I saw.

Looking good to me! Nice and warm when I opened the top...
Here's the big palm hut..

I'm glad to see your's are doing well and looking healthy!!! Only like another 85 days till Spring!!
Merry Christmas...

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:06 pm

Looking good, Scotty! Are you using heat on that first enclosure, or is it plastic only? I'm sure they will all pull through just fine for you too. Merry Christmas!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:17 pm

Using the same method as you with the first.. 35/45 thermo cube. The only difference is that I am using a regular string of 25 c-9 lights instead of the mini lights.. A couple of my other enclosures are not heated. I haven't looked at them..

serj · Post by **serj** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:50 am

Guys, what is the reason for covering palms with extra heat? Many palms will be able to survive without any extra heat under styrofoam boxes like it is doing my palms.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:20 am

I am trying a couple of Trachy's without heat. The reason I use heat is so they don't completely loose all their fronds and look like crap until June/July. This way they come out looking mint. Also I really don't know if one could survive well in my climate without heat protection. It stays below freezing too often in the winter.. But we'll see how the unheated ones do. Glad to see it's working for you.

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:51 am

Same here as Scotty. I don't want a defoliated palm until July 4th, or one that is half burnt--especially seeing as they are in my front yard. Heat is cheap for what it provides the palm. I also am trying a few unheated to see what happens, but I am expecting total defoliation or death.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:32 am

Wow, they look so good.

Got my hydro bill, seems to be about ~$25.00 more than last one.
Temps have been more or less the same throughout.
Cheap, as Tim says, for what it gives us in protection and a nice looking palm come spring.

Thanks for the sneak peek inside the enclosures, guys.
Barb

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:34 pm

Looking very good. They seem quite happy inside those enclosures.

Reminder to everyone that Christmas lights are now heavily discounted. Stock up now.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:46 pm

Christmas lights are now heavily discounted. Stock up now

Went to town just for that reason today.
Wanted clear LED lights as daughter is getting married here in September.

Only the colored Christmas lights were on sale at $39.00 for 100 foot string of C-7. 25.92 W total

Ended up paying $69.00 for each of two -100 foot strings of clear.

Would'a been cheaper to drive to the USA...

Barb

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:20 pm

I bought a line of white C-9s for future use with my Butia. I prefer colored lights for Christmas, but white is better for eccentric hobbies.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:40 pm

Looking good guys,I checked my cactus enclosure today after not being around or heating for
some of the colder nights lately,even with 10(F) last night the snow covered C-house was only 27
for a low..... the Cordyline australis looks good still-it may just make it through without dying
to the roots for a change!

Unfortunately 2 of the Trachys spear pulled(also my planted Princeps)not from cold however,
byproduct of the Neem oil

,the good news is they are totally fine though besides the pull

The 2 C.cerifera are looking really nice too!

RyanNiagara · Post by **RyanNiagara** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:24 pm

Looks good Scotty. Where do you guys get your c9's. All I see here in Niagara is LED.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:53 pm

[quote="hardyjim"]

Unfortunately 2 of the Trachys spear pulled(also my planted Princeps)not from cold however,
byproduct of the Neem oil

,the good news is they are totally fine though besides the pull

![/quote]

Darn! I always thought of neem oil as safe, if not particularly effective. I haven't used any yet but have a spray bottle on standby.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:25 am

Looking solid guys. I use a similar enclosure for my palms, no insulation save a layer of frost cloth and heat is provided by cables and mini-lights. I have not used the thermo cubes this year (still sticking with palms that 'might' have a chance if the heat fails). I will be more proactive next year with some of the slightly less hardy Sabals (texensis (aka minor) and birmingham (aka??????).)

I don't use c-9 lights. They are as rare as a chickens tooth, and much more costly to replace/operate than the mini-lights. Mini-lights are available anywhere that sells xmas lights (Canadian Tire, Rona, HD, Zellers, etc.).

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:53 am

They had a ton of c-9 lights at CT this year. They were $ 9.99 for a string of 25... I think they put out more heat though. They only run about 60% of the day when it's around the -5C range.. Just my observations..

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:53 am

Who had them??? Are they the LED ones?

You might have me second guessing the failures I've had in the past Scotty... Maybe a Trachy is worthwhile in our climate... And the survival of that Aubuca without care for 2 years has got me wondering!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:12 am

C-9 & C-7 lights here are $6.99 for a strand of 25 at Walmart....nothing beats that!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:01 pm

2 of the Trachys spear pulled(also my planted Princeps)not from cold however,
byproduct of the Neem oi

Stuff smells rank, mine was sold as "neem oil leaf shine"...what a mess it made on wood floors too, one little drip was like glue.

Well, Jim, if anybody HAS TO HAVE spear pull, it might as well be you.
Your palms regrow from spear pull.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:08 pm

I bought the c-9's at Canadian Tire. They had a lot there for $ 9.99 for a string of 25...

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:10 pm

Yeah Paul.. I dunno.. Maybe we just get lucky with certain plants??? The Acuba I got was from Bill in MA. We have had -15c here at my place and not a scratch on it. Not to say it won't die by the end of the winter. But each time, like today when it warms up to 0c it looks mint again..

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:40 am

lucky1 wrote:
2 of the Trachys spear pulled(also my planted Princeps)not from cold however,
byproduct of the Neem oi
Stuff smells rank, mine was sold as "neem oil leaf shine"...what a mess it made on wood floors too, one little drip was like glue.

Well, Jim, if anybody HAS TO HAVE spear pull, it might as well be you.
Your palms regrow from spear pull.

Barb

I think the neem oil is great for anything but palms,works great on Lemon trees
for scale,lalalalala.

It's just awful for palms,Cordylines,floors,walls,windows etc.

I noticed that even on some of my other palms that the spear leaves where damaged even though
they didn't pull and even my Filibusta spear broke off but is growing out of it

I just went in the Cactus house yesterday,the Cordyline australis still looks good,no pull
and all the Trachys with pull are nice and healthy,no leaf lose!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:49 am

I almost tossed the Neem oil but will keep it for the 6foot Grapefruit tree.
Have 2 inches of coffee grounds as top-dressing so may not need Neem for that.

Cordyline australis still looks good

Better conditions than last winter, plus it's a year older.

Re spear pull you've already had...do you wait until spring to cut away to live tissue?
or do it now to dry out the bud?

BTW have you heard how Bill's GH fared through that brutal snowstorm?
He's AWOL

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:36 pm

Don't understand all this spear pull stuff. I've never had spear pull.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:22 pm

Maybe this will be your lucky year!

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:33 pm

I've never had spear pull.

The golden rule has officially been broken.

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:24 pm

And...........tonight I've had spear pull.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:18 pm

Oh no!
Which one? The tall lanky one?

serj · Post by **serj** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:32 am

Guys, can anyone tell me what is the "neem oil". (I'm not good in english).

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:54 am

Serj,
here is the Wikipedia explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_oil

In brief, it is thought to be a safe and effective insecticide and anti-fungal spray for plants. I am not sure if quality scientific studies have been done on it to show it is really safe and effective. I have used it some and think it is better than nothing but maybe not a lot better. If there is interest, we can have a "neem thread" to share experiences. --Erik

serj · Post by **serj** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:09 am

Erik, thanks a lot for explanation! I have never used antifungal spray or other material. The succes is in not using things that can be rotten. No leaves inside palms shelter - no problem.

hilashes · Post by **hilashes** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:46 am

Merry Christmas and happy new year to you all!

Fantastic shots of the palms Tim, it will be interesting to hear what happens to the unheated ones when they're all uncovered.

Scotty great pics also - thanks for the look-see.

Barb, I was up in your neck of the woods for Christmas and wondered how your Trachy is doing (nice painted shelter I see on your avatar by the way!) your temps didn't seem bad at all, in fact it was lovely while I was there! Congratulations on your daughter's upcoming wedding, clear lights will be pretty!

Heidi

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:13 am

Heidi,
Wish I'd known you were coming up for Christmas (despite everyones' busy schedules)...we could'a visited the Trachy hut while holding a warm mug of something

Yes, weather was great during the holiday...but we're back to reality now :lickice:

Glad you made it safely here and back...always hate to hear of peoples' struggles across the high mountain passes.
As they say, bin der dun dat.

Thanks for the good wishes.
Happy 2011 to you too...little one will be helping with your palm huts next Fall

Barb

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:26 am

The spear pull I posted about last night was on one of the unheated palms.

Today...it is 52 degrees outside, so I opened up all the palm enclosures to take a peak inside. One of the uninsulated 3 gallon trachys that have mini lights only for heat now pulled both spears plus the newest opened frond. What caused me to investigate was the newest opened frond was all shriveled up, but the other fronds were healthy. So I tugged on the frond and out it came. Then I tugged on the spears and out they came too. I went to the other 3 uninsulated trachys and tugged on their spears but they stayed in place.

So...I don't know if this is a failed experiment, or simply a bad palm in the mix. The one where the spear pulled grew a few funky fronds last spring where the middle was brown around the frond, but the inner and outer parts were green. Cold damage? Maybe. The coldest the enclosures have gotten was about 20F and they get above freezing each day. The ground isn't frozen inside, so I don't know what the problem is.

The two trachys up by my house that are insulated and heated with a space heater to 40F are in perfect condition as expected.

Pics.

Uninsulated trachy with mini lights. No spear pull. This is how 3 out of the 4 look. So I'm thinking it's an isolated palm issue?

Trachy I planted in 2008. Looks bullet-proof and perfect.

Trachy I planted in June 2010. Leggy one. Slight damage maybe? Fronds look a little meh. Probably because it's not established yet.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:40 am

I'm trying to follow which one from your Day One posting pics.

The pulled one...

Each of these windmill palms have just a 100 bulb string of mini lights wrapped around it on a 35/45 thermocube.

or when you say "uninsulated", surely you don't mean unheated.

pic of the spear pulled one?
Barb

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:07 am

lucky1 wrote:I'm trying to follow which one from your Day One posting pics.

The pulled one...
Each of these windmill palms have just a 100 bulb string of mini lights wrapped around it on a 35/45 thermocube.
or when you say "uninsulated", surely you don't mean unheated.

pic of the spear pulled one?
Barb

Yeah, uninsulated means it just has two layers of 6 mil poly and then the palm is wrapped with the mini lights. I didn't take a pic of the spear pulled one. It looks just like the one I posted but minus the spears. Other leaves are green.