spear pull

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:08 pm

So why is it that larger, well established trachys arent as prone to spear pull/fungus as younger ones?
I mean its all the same stuff up inside the crown right?............a spear and some water. I can understand the
larger tree handling more cold, but when it comes to water getting in the crown, why is it that the bigger
trachys can just shrug it off?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:03 pm

Good Q for a discussion.

one factor: the older a palm is, the taller it usually is so the growing bud from which the next spear will emerge is farther from the ground (where cold settles) than a younger shorter palm.

Plus--and I'm only guessing--the larger root system that feeds that leaf mass just might have its lowest roots feed the growing bud, guessing that those deepest roots would be more likely to find water in habitat, hence the top could grow. i.e. shallow roots feed oldest leaves, and so on?

Lots of people use copper to prevent spear pull...this was interesting::

Note, the copper-based product must be a pesticide. Copper products used for nutrient purposes may be phytotoxic when used in the same manner as a pesticide. Also, copper-based bactericide/fungicides containing copper sulfate pentahydrate (CuSO4•5H2O) are often phytotoxic to palms unless the copper sulfate pentahydrate has been neutralized with an alkaline component (e.g., calcium hydroxide). Safer copper-based pesticides for palms contain the active ingredients copper hydroxide, copper oxychloride, or basic copper sulfate [CuSO4•3Cu(OH)2]. These are often referred to as "fixed coppers." All pesticides must be used according to the label.

From: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp144

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:49 am

Thanks for that link, Barb. I used the copper products until this year, when some experienced folks here expressed caution. Now I have some other product (chlorothanil ?).
From what you wrote, it is a bit more complicated than, "copper is good" or "copper is bad." It sounds like the answer is, "it depends...."

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:55 am

Ok that article was a little more than my brain can comprehend at the moment. The question still remains though. They say
soil born pathogens. Like I even know what that is. How did these pathogens get in the soil in the first place? Why dont they cause
rot in other plants that are planted less than a few feet away? Why are peaople spraying fungicide on the spears, when the problem
originates in the soil?

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:01 pm

coltrane wrote:Ok that article was a little more than my brain can comprehend at the moment. The question still remains though. They say
soil born pathogens. Like I even know what that is. How did these pathogens get in the soil in the first place? Why dont they cause
rot in other plants that are planted less than a few feet away? Why are peaople spraying fungicide on the spears, when the problem
originates in the soil?

I have had- knock on wood- one case of spear pull. It happened after I dug up and transplanted three Trachies. All looked ravaged with one losing its spear. I sprayed fungicide on it. Today it and the other two are fine specimens closing in on the 6 foot mark.

My layman's observation was that the soil was irrelevant. It was the stress of transplanting followed by winter.

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:19 pm

Thanks for everyones insight.

Ok Im gonna stick with my original thought proccess.......Im just going to assume that nobody really knows
what causes a living tree to start rotting on the insides. Water maybe? Im not going to buy that.
Since when is bad for a tree to get wet? They live outside.
I just dont understand. Pathogen smothogen.....whatever. Its just gonna be they same old story come spring......
.....200 posts about 'why did my trachys spear pull?'.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:45 pm

be patient, others will chime in too.

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:39 pm

Didnt mean to sound impatient.

I just got to thinking how some things just dont add up, thats all. Ive probably read 10000 posts about spear pull etc., and
its always the same scenario. Then someone always says to keep the spear dry. WHY? Does fungus really grow when air temps
are below freezing? I would doubt it. You always hear people say that rot occurs in spring.......after temps have warmed and no
more palm covers. Whats really going on here? Is it the cold that kills it, or is it the heat. I just think something is being overlooked
but Im not quite sure what it is yet. And yes I know that cold can kill palms. But lets assume that temps are in a reasonable range here.
I would be interested to know the spear pull rate of trachys living in more palm friendly climates. Maybe spear pull is just a common trait of
trachys. Its cold hardiness seems to be all over the map so it wouldnt surprise me.

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:11 pm

Hi all,

This is my two cents: an older tree is more cold hardy i.e. it has thicker, sturdier cell walls. Also, its body is thicker with more protection material wrapped around its growth area. Comes frost and as it is with less winter hardy plants, the cold will try to destroy cell walls. If those walls are destroyed, the plant's tissues will break up and wilt so will eventually die/or rot away once the spring thaw comes... Interestingly, some deep frozen plants will not seem to be dead until spring comes...

Oh, the palms' growing areas are different from the Dicotyledonopsida ( I do not know this phrase in English; when the seed starts to grow, the first leaf (-ves) - the temperate broad leaved trees have growth rings - "cambium"), the palms do not have growth rings, but have circular growth areas, scattered around in their trunks, similarly to the trunked yuccas..... so the older the palm tree is the more tissue surrounds these growth areas.

Spear pull: if I assume that spear pull has happened to a plant the central tissues of which have been seriously injured, it is simply natural to assume that all those microorganisms that are all around us have started to munch on those tissues as they have found an open gate to the yummie parts. A well-timed treatment will eliminate much of this threat by their mass killing, but the final result will depend on how much the plant tissue has been destroyed by the frost.

So, if we protect the leaves from the rain/snow, we are decreasing the chance of opening the gate (alternating thaw and freeze will break the cells and the rain/snow infiltrates to the body...), but the frost effect is still there..... to be continued.... / Rob

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:31 pm

Robreti, thanks for your comments.

(alternating thaw and freeze will break the cells and the rain/snow infiltrates to the body...),

And probably more so in the southeast U.S. than most places.....which is strange because trachys do well there. So I still
have to wonder about that one?????

Heres another thought. A lot of palm growers may overpamper their plants. Possibly over fertilizing/amending. I wonder if just
sticking to good old fashioned dirt would be a better idea? I know it seems to hold true with most other trees.
Seems like trying to override the natural growth rate might not be so good. But what the heck do I know, Im just takin shots in the
dark. Also, palms just like everything else in life, sometimes just die for no apparent reason. I wonder how many times that has
happened and someone blamed the rain or the cold, when in reality it was neither.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:07 am

coltrane, given where you live, and how cold it has been, could you go out in the woods to see if any spear pull occurs in wild dwarf palmettos?

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:23 am

Since when is bad for a tree to get wet? They live outside.

I think its a matter of how much prolonged exposure to excessive moisture, particularly in the crown area. Yes, most plants get wet outside, but the water soon flows/drains away. If not, the consequences can be negative.Try planting a cactus in a bog for the ultimate example. Even the water you drink, vital though it is, quickly moves on, so to speak.

My big mistake has been not covering my leaf cages. Thus, the rain and snow soak the leaves and endanger the crown and other areas as excessive moisture sits there for extended periods. When its warm, they may gret drenched, but the water flows off the tree and drains from the soil (hopefully).

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:23 am

Spear pull occurs for at least 2 reasons,one is pathogens attacking weakened cell wall structure,or
the pathogens weakening it themselves.

As mentioned a larger palm has more insulation from the trunk and mass as well as
more protected bud tissue in it's core,larger palms have stronger immune systems as
well and greater stores of carbs/sugars that act as an
antifreeze.

I have had spear pull from using neem oil,which sits in the bud area and goes rancid,(pathogens)attacking the bud
when growth slows enough to effectively destroy the area it sits on.

Keeping the spear dry keeps moisture away from the tender tissue inside the bud area,
moisture in cold weather acts as a catalyst to transport cold directly on
to the bud tissue,leaves etc,also frozen water in contact creates ice crystals that sever
said tissue.

The other kind of spear pull is trauma induced,transplant shock,root damage from lack of
water,freezing feeder roots etc.
This is much harder to recover from and unless caught early is fatal,catching it early is tough
because we obviously can't see the roots.
Unless you catch the more subtle signals...growth stoppage,leaf lose,leaves staying closed
when they should open back up,like at night you can lose the palm quickly.

You mentioned just using dirt I believe,not fertilizing?

This is also a good plan,although who can resist the temptation to speed up growth?

Cutting back on fertilizer and water going into fall is a good way to help your palms
harden off tissue going into winter-water management can be tough though....
if mother nature gives you a wet warm fall.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:33 am

and Freeze Pruf is over rated, promising 2 to 9 degrees "benefit".
Especially since it makes us believe we have a magic bullet against winter...and we let down our guard.

http://pro.liquidfence.com/ecologic/freeze-pruf.html

My Naini Tal croaked during an unheated, but covered, winter after using Freeze Pruf.
But it might have died anyway...

Barb

coltrane · Post by **coltrane** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:25 am

Thanks everyone. Its making more sense to me now. Thank you Jim for an explanation that I could grasp.

TerdalFarm, I suppose I could, but I never have noticed any dead sabals out there so that probably says
a lot in and of itself.

If I ever do decide to ferilize my palms......it will be spaghetti and cake. Got to keep those antifreeze levels up.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:57 pm

This fall was really perfect for hardening the palms off,no rain(1" in 2 months)
and plenty of cold temps before winter set in-it did set in awful damn quick though!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:07 pm

Coltrane,

I'm not sure if this was mentioned about the larger palms, when I scanned through I didn't see it.

Larger palms store lots of carbs up in there trunks after years of happy growing, that's another reason bigger more established palms can take more abuse. They have reserves to keep them going, if times get tough.

Bill

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:05 pm

Nice! Makes me appreciate Sabal minor all the more.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:37 am

Some of the Sabals are right up there in toughness with any palm....

that reminds me,I forgot to protect the one I (threw)planted
on the side of the house

PhilMusa · Post by **PhilMusa** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:03 pm

that reminds me,I forgot to protect the one I (threw)planted
on the side of the house

...and that reminds me about the small t.f. I forgot to cover. I guess it is now an experiment.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:45 pm

I hear ya

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:41 pm

I have two trachys planted that are just getting their character leaves without heat. They have a five gallon bucket stuffed with dry leaves. I want to see if they make it.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:46 pm

That's a video I have yet to see...how you guys stuff an inverted bucket.

wxman · Post by **wxman** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:56 pm

I cut the bottom of the bucket out and then slip it over the palm, stuff it with leaves and put the lid on.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:42 pm

Mystery solved!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:55 am