Trachycarpus fortunei "Tesan" and related issue

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garryendson
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Trachycarpus fortunei "Tesan" and related issue

Post by garryendson »

Based on the certain common features, we could divide them into different forms or sub-species or cultivars like R.excelsa varigata with yellow tripes which fall into numerous forms as the Japanese did .To tell the truth, there have been existing in the Chinese civil field of palm growth with the farmers across the country several T.fortunei cultivars like regular chusan form, Hasan (stout and small leave), Tesan form (compact ,stout and better hardiness)and Misan(small and slender),etc over thousands of years of palm cultivation according to their different fiber appearance ,growth characteristics and cold hardiness.

Tesan is just a cultivar specially selected for their better cold hardiness and stout trunk.
The following are photos of Tesan from seeds ,seedlings to adult palms.

The seeds are normally bigger than T.fortunei seeds (Chusan).I remember once Paul pointed out that my previous photo showed that Tesan seeds were fresher whereas Chusan shrinked a little bit,though one is harvested 1-2 months later than the other and the difference could be ignored as both seeds are kept in the sand. Actually even with seeds harvested at the same time, Tesan are still bigger than Chusan we noticed. Christof from Belgium posted his photo as below comparing Tesan with his local chusan seeds.

The emerging seedlings from late last year's seeds show the difference between the two.Tesan seedlings seem to be stronger and shorter and Chusan slender and longer.
The seedlings are also compacter and stouter I should say based on my 1.4 year old seedling if compared with other trachycarpus seedlings.
Jeff from NY was one of the first growers years ago who tried them out and also made the same remarks "They are grown from seed, are almost one year old now and already they are showing different traits than a normal fortunei. They have stiff leaves, stronger petioles, and are more compact"
Anyhow it is just a short progressive record of this interesting trachycarpus cultivar and hope some other growers could contribute his own experiences .

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Take a look at one of my T.fortunei which is just another form of the the cutlivars called thread palm ,more like T.martianus in trunk and hair.
Image
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Paul Ont
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Post by Paul Ont »

Gary- Another interesting post.

I wonder if the seed character is completely based on the mother palm? Previously, I thought that the ridge character was completely based on the mother palm, BUT, the fact that some of the Italian 'Takil' palms produce both 2 and 4 ridge seedlings nixed that thought!

I like the tight fibers on the bottom photo, there really in a lot of variation within Trachycarpus fortunei!
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Post by hardyjim »

Paul Ont wrote:Gary- Another interesting post.

BUT, the fact that some of the Italian 'Takil' palms produce both 2 and 4 ridge seedlings nixed that thought!

I like the tight fibers on the bottom photo, there really in a lot of variation within Trachycarpus fortunei!



I think we could assume the 2-4 ridgers in that case ARE hybrids(with Fortunei) Paul.

Great post Garry!

I still have some(3)of Jeff's original Tesan Garry.

I HAVE HAD HORRIBLE WHITE SPIDER MITE PROBLEMS THE LAST FEW YEARS ON MY TRACHYS-ARGH!!!!!!!!

I have a Misan that is growing up nicely-just one though :cry:


That palm with the burlap wrapped fibers is very unusual,you would almost have
to say for sure it's Takil or Oreophilus but the long ligules blow a few holes in that theory.



I love the T.tesan plants look(when they get older!)can't wait to see how mine do!


How are your Tesan seedlings doing Paul-for me they have been the easiest by far to sprout!
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xie xie (thanks)

Post by TerdalFarm »

Thanks, Garry. I know it takes effort for you to do this, and I want you to know that palm novices like me appreciate your educating us. --Erik
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Post by garryendson »

Tesan were obtained after breeding and crossing several times from specially selected T.fortunei with stouter trunks and compact look in cold areas over decades by a Chinese plant researcher ,but unluckily, still they are not that popular and few were introduced as there are many T.fortunei in the wild or cultivation and the foreign palms are rushing into the the local market thus discouraging people's interest in native palms. Therefore the offspring is based not only on the mother palms but also the father ones.It is demonstrated by the Winsan I am growing.Though the seeds were collected from the mother Winsan with 100% circular leaves, the offspring so far have not yet showed the same features and this could possibly due to the interference of the T.fortunei nearby.See the mother palms and seedlings http://www.flickr.com/photos/18211312@N04/page2/

When it comes to the ridge number, I believe a pure trachycarpus species have stable ridge number rather than variable one. Because I have made a long observation of T.fortunei including Tesan and Winsan forms, princeps,nova,nanus, the ridge number of the first strap leaf is always stable either 2 or 4 except Winsan ,probably a trachycarpus variant or hybrid with ridge number shifting from 3-6 and vigorous and fast growth like Nova.
The takil with 4 ridges in my view could be crossed with T.fortunei,not a pure one as they are growing closely together.

By the way, I recently read T.princeps also have 4 ridges and nova 2 ones contrary to years of cultivation experiences by people from around the world and I did not notice any ridge variation either from my cultivated princeps or nova or those seedlings in the habitat over the past years. It lends me to think that they are not pure ones but mixed up with other trachycarpus.
Last edited by garryendson on Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hardyjim
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Post by hardyjim »

Enjoyed your post Garry.

I really love the look of Tesan and am very excited to see what mine look like a s they mature.

Would love to see more pics of Misan in there if you have them,I have one that is growing very nicely now,
I am also looking forward to seeing this one get bigger :D

It will be interesting to see what these palms with ridge anomalies turn out like as I believe now there are a lot
of people observing these and keeping notes on them.

Will Naini Tal turn out to be a 4 ridge Takil hybrid with Fortunei?
Will the 2 ridge 'Nova' turn out to be the stouter version that resembles Princeps
in growth habit but not necessarily coloration?

Maybe we will find out in the coming years 8)
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Post by garryendson »

Jim,
Here are some more photos of Misan in the habitat.
By the way, regarding the Nova with supposedly 2 ridges or Princeps with 4 ridges , I'd rather think they are actually not what they ought to be,but mixed up with each other or whatever.We'll wait and see.

Image
Image
Image
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T. tesan Market?

Post by Okanagan desert-palms »

Gary thank you for your work regarding Trachycarpus tesan and Trachycarpus species.Many palm people that live in zone 5 to 6b would like to plant T.tesan I`m sure . I would like several 15 gal. size to plant and see if they would overwinter as well as we see in Beijing zone 6b. Is there anyone that has this size of palm in North America for sale? The market for a T. tesan palm will open up a huge wide area of new palm plantings in Canada and the U.S.without protection. What is the coldest temperatures T.tesan has experienced in Beijing over the last three years? What duration was the cold below 0 celcius or lower? How much snow? Any spear rot? Recovery ? Thank you in advance for your response to my many questions.

John
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Post by hardyjim »

N/M
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Post by hardyjim »

I think Garry told me once that Mt.Tesan had seen -4f.

I did not have any luck overwintering one last year but it was a tough one
to try it,although the winter was very cold,the sudden shift to winter weather
after nothing less the 32f(Oct-Nov which would not even be freezing to the bud tissue)
was the problem.

Only 3 of my Trachys did not have some type of bud damage-2 were slow growing Waggies,
the other a slow growing Naini Tal,the next least damaged were a very fast growing Naini Tal
and another Waggie-it was a tough winter!



BTW-
One Fortunei recovered from at least -2f
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Post by TerdalFarm »

Jim,
call Bryan at AG to talk about Trachy and this past winter. He lost a bunch. :cry:
--Erik
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Post by garryendson »

John,I could not answer every of your question since I did not pay attention to some aspects.
Jim, sorry to hear you lost tesan .Is it the first year it is planted out? I think that is possibly because the roots are not so well developed as your other trachycarpus which were in the grounds for some time , before catching the record cold spell you got last year. Keep up with your good pioneering work.

Here I can only contribute some of the experiemental results from the Chinese growers.
Tesan were cultivated in Tianshui City Gansu Pronvince,Northwest China where the lowest temperature reached as low as -20C /-5Fin its bitterly cold winter.
and also the initial experiment by the plant researcher showed that they did fine with the temperature in Beijing which saw -19C as the author reported in his articles . In 1955, Tesan survived the record hit cold -20.6 C in Hefei City, East China. All these cultivation experiment indicated that Tesan are more cold hardy than regular T.fortunei due to their unique thick and stiff leaves and thicker hair protecting
the plant.

I saw the German guy sowed tesan directly in the ground and he later told me they survived -15C with only mulch whereas Winsan did not do the same good job. The following are his growing experiences with Tesan and Winsan he sent me in his email.
http://www.exotenwiese.de/53543/57793.html

"These winsan trachys do very well in a pot…they are very strong and I would never believe, that they are just very young…in the garden soil, they develop also good, but not that fast…that’s normal…I still cant tell about the round closed leafs, but they are the fastest growing trachys,."

"Tesan is growing more compact, slower and got no damage from cold and long winter…so it looks like there is a choice for a man with patience getting a cold hardy palm with a tesan or someone without patience, he gets a winsan, that isn’t that cold hardy…"

From another German grower, comes some more experiences.
http://www.exotengarten-odenwald.de/40144.html
Google translation
"after the "Killer Night" at 05 Januar 09 mit Temperaturen von unter -21° und Temperaturen von -18° bis -20° in den folgenden Nächten sind die Blätter aller ausgepflanzten Trachys erfroren, egal ob mit oder ohne Schutz. January 2009, with temperatures below -21 ° and temperatures of -18 ° to -20 ° in the following nights, the leaves are all planted Trachys frozen, whether with or without notice. Die Pflanzen haben sich aber alle 2009 wieder gut erholt und den Blattverlust fast ausgeglichen. The plants have all but recovered well in 2009 and the balance sheet loss fast. "

Anyhow, Withe regard to the hardiness,that is a complicated question since the health and age of the palms ,cold duration and humidity are all involved . There is much variation of Trachycaprus species in term of leaf, hair and hardiness.
I believe the hardiness gene exist in trachycarpus and we need to find them out With patient and specific selection and breeding, we could cultivate a good variety with nice appearance and better cold hardiness.
That is why we heard there are dozens of other trachycaprus species which are supposed to be very cold hardy as well. Tesan is just one of them. The odd thing is I recently read on EPS that Nova survived -16C iin the previous year ,followed by -19C last year in Holland. This is against our normal view about this bit of slender trachycarpus which may not be as cold hardy as T.fortunei.
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Post by hardyjim »

Garry

It is possible that 2 of the Trachys I actually lost(Wagxfort and Tesan)may have come back,
it was just getting to late in the season to leave prime spots to plants that had not started recovery by May.
Both of these palms were also trunk cut.

I just want to repeat that what really knocked my palms out was not the extreme cold originally.....................

We had unusual weather last summer/fall,our Oct was 7f below avg(mean temp) and Nov was +7f .


The odd thing was NO freezing weather in either month!


My palms had NO period of hardening off and when winter started in earnest my palms were(literally)
caught out,severely damaged be temps that they would breeze through in March.

If Trachys don't see some cold weather prior to real winter cold they have no defense for it,
once my palms make it through January they are rock solid and can withstand single digits with no damage
as long as it isn't windy.

My new plan is to protect earlier and uncover earlier........weather permitting :wink:
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T. tesan

Post by Okanagan desert-palms »

Jim thanks for your comments.I hope you have a better fall and winter than last year. We are fortunate here in the Okanagan Valley that we have a gradual change to fall and winter. We have most of our temperature swings during winter into spring. "Gary" the reason I asked you about the 15 gal. "57 liter" pot size T.tesan. The 57 liter pot is the only size of Trachycarpus species I will plant here in a zone 6b for best survival long term here in my opinion. I hope I comprehend from your comments that there are no 57 liter.T. tesan for sale anywhere in North America. "Anybody". I have 2 T.tesan seedlings ordered from Maccario "Palms North"member 3 years ago. They are valuable to me so I will not plant them until they grow to a large 57 liter size, many more years from now. Gary how many large T. tesan do you have for sale in China? Price for 57 liter if any? thank you for your response.


John
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Post by hardyjim »

Hey John

I wanted some of those from Garry too! :D
I think the only way he can do it is a LARGE container like you see being
shipped on the big freighters.

I would love to get some of those furry bastards,they are such cool looking palms!


Check out the picture(right after the comparison photo of the
Fortunei and Tesan seeds!

http://www.coldplant.com/plantlist.asp?ArticleID=21

To my knowledge the 'first' ones in the states were sold(seeds)to Jeff in N.J.
I was lucky enough to buy 6 off him about 2 years ago,I also sent Mike (Maccario)
one of the 'bigger' ones.

Yours are probably the same size now?

Do you have any pics of them?
I have about 20 or so(I think)seedlings and more sprouting :D
I also have a bunch of Bulgarian trachys(seedlings) which are also fairly stout-sure you've seen those,
heck you probably have those too-eeh!

I would love to see some pics of yours John-

I just happened to take some pics of mine yesterday(9-7-10)
Not in this pic but my little Misan is,in the front-not much to see yet!
Image

The one in the front-lower right of this pic is a strange anomaly in the Nova line,
a stouter version more similar to Princeps.

The 2 right behind the milk jug are Tesan,unfortunately the 3rd is cut off in this pic-upper left.

You can clearly see in the Tesan- at about 11 o'clock to the milk jug- how stout these grow!
Image
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Post by garryendson »

Jim,
Nice photos.
I got several stout versions of Nova which however I am not sure grown from T.fortunei seeds or Nova seeds. Since
I did not grow T.fortunei purposely and they are most likely to be Nova even if few could be mixed up .
They tend to fall into the category of T.fortunei. See your stout Nova and the leaves are not evenly and narrowly split like normal Nova I put above and plus the trunk and petioles are not elongated, pretty much like T.fortunei.
To tell the truth, I did collect a second source of Nova seeds as I mentioned before and the current result showed that they are stouter than normal Nova, unlike the standard Nova with narrowly and evenly split leaflets, ,though with narrow leaves and bit of slender look.
I found that all the young seedlings of Trachycarpus princeps and the two types of Nova are all narrowly leaved, different from T.fortunei seedlings with much broader leaves of 180 degree across shown by my above photos. Could that be a response to the strong sunlight to avoid burn when young?
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Post by hardyjim »

garryendson wrote:Jim,
Could that be a response to the strong sunlight to avoid burn when young?



Not sure about that Garry.

You probably saw the post about 'abnormalities' in Nova on EPS-
I think to many people have this stout version of Nova to write it off....
In that same thread I posted a link to a post by Lzrddr in Cali(from GWF),he also has a palm
sold as Princeps(that at the time were turning out to be Nova) that resembles this palm and it's a beauty!!

Look at his second post with pics-I am guessing(also hoping)this 'stouter version'
turns out to be this palm.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load ... 18430.html
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Post by garryendson »

John, Trachycaprus is normally not allowed to enter USA for the "Lethal Yellow" Disease or whatever and you and Jim probably got the biggest ones so far out there.We got big sizes like the adult palms shown by the photos.
Jim,
Yes that is a pretty different version of Nova with wider leaflets and stiff appearance.
But in term of trunk, I would say it is not so stout as Tesan or some T.fortunei, :D .
It is compacter and wider leaved with not so elongated petioles. Few of what I am growing deviated
from most normal Nova is kind of like this.

Take a look at here which I think is the normal Nova .
http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24370

By the way,
This is normal Nova wrongly listed as T.princeps from Davesgarden
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/118712/

I am not sure if this juvenile grows from the above Nova.If so, that means all the Nova will finally turn
out to be the same style like this
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/194204/

Is this the adult from the above two?
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/146676/
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Post by hardyjim »

Garry

as I said before I really love the Tesan and any more info/pics you have on them would be much appreciated!


Those are some great pics,interesting to me that all of the Princeps,Nova and the stouter palm showing up
repeatedly sold as Princeps/Nova have a tighter wrapping of the fibers than regular Fortunei.

I noticed that some of(let's for lack of better/known term call it)Nova-compact do occasionally show very white undersides to leaves
as "regular" Nova can.

I wonder if(just as many large mountain ranges have 'foothills' )the original mistaken seed sold as Princeps were all Nova/Nova stout
that were gathered not where the epicenter-the cliffs!-of Princeps is(Stonegate)but in the foothills/outskirts of where real Princeps grows?

People did not go to the cliffs where Princeps grows but just grabbed seeds from plants in between where Princeps and Fortunei grow-NOVA!?
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Post by garryendson »

Jim, I would say the few Nova and also some T.fortunei that have some white powder to the backsides are blue or silver as the white powder is not that thick and therefore not as white as that on T.princeps.
Even the bluest Nova I saw on EPS is nowhere near T.princeps which is definitely SNOW WHITE if you look at the habitat photos I posted on EPS. But in cultivation, the princeps we saw by some growers seem not to be so white but look bit of bluish because of insufficient white powder. That is possibly why people did not draw a clear line between them.
Regarding your speculation that Nova might be the hybrid between T.princeps and fortunei, it is reasonable but hard to verify it so far.
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Post by hardyjim »

Yea Garry-

until there is some serious DNA testing we may never know for sure,unless...................

we try some of these crosses ourselves :D


That would be fun!
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