Sabal Minor "McCurtain" source?

[canadianplant]

I am interested in purchasing, and trying a Sabal Minor "McCurtain". It is rated hardy to zone 5 or 6 ( depending on source of info). Is there a Canadian source for this plant? I would prefer live plants, rather then seeds, seeing as I have ban luck so far germinating palm seeds.

[BILL MA]

Canadianplant,
Just to let you know McCurtain is one of if not the slowest growing minors you could possibly find. I have a few and yeah the color is nice and all but good luck if they get any I mean ANY damage over the winter getting anything in return for there few degree's of cold tolerance. Take my advice for what ever you want, your best bet would be a Louisiana all day. A leaf cover won't do it in your location if you want something that actually looks like a palm, so you'll need heat so the difference between the two really makes no difference. You might as well go with the one that will actually produce some leaves over the summer.

I'm just trying to save you the aggravation.

Bill

[canadianplant]

No thats fine... this is why i make posts

The only thing is every single bit of info Ive read about the Mcurtain, states that it is FASTER then the regular Minor. This probably isnt saying alot, seeing as Sabal Minor is SLOOOOOOOOOOOW. Do you mean it is slow, after seeing such cold temperature, or slow in general?.

Louisiana, is rated at zone 7 ( -17C ish), while Mccurtain is rated at -24C to - 26C ( zone 5). I have a GOOD chance of making the Mccurtain survive here, while the other sabals, Im not too sure about. Im thinking in terms of winter proection. I can easily cover theMccurtain during the coldest part of the winter, and uncover it when I uncover my bamboo ( when lows are no lower then -10C. I could just multch it and cover it in the sae way as my bamboo as well.

As for the Louisiana, I would more then likley need suplimental heat to do make it survive the winters here. But then again, i Guess it depends on my winter protection.

As for heat, during the early spring, I can make a "greenhouse" over it, to keep the day temps HIGH, and try to hold int he heat for the night.

[hardyjim]

Probably the person that rated McCurtain z5 has them for sale,because (IMHO)this is B.S.

Takil is probably hardier than Fortunei but if it grows slower it may not recover during spring/summer/fall
so........would it matter.

I have 6 S.Louisiana,last year they grew 4 new leaves,already 3 this year(so far)-from total defoliation.
McCurtain would probably hang around for a while in decline without protection and since we are protecting-
why not grow something that WILL grow.

I don't believe any palm is hardy to zone 5,unless you live in Colorado.

[canadianplant]

Well to be fair, you are zone 5, and as you say the Sabal are growing. They may have been defoliated, but id say that is hardy no?

Do you have experience growing Mccurtain?

Since you brought up the louisiana..... I concidered this palm, but as I said, it is labeled as zone 7 ( can we really trust the ratings??? probably not 100%), but some sources have listed it hardy to zone 5 or 6, in there experience, like you. I hadnt read that it is such a prolific grower for a Sabal. And they are easier to get as well. Whats the lowest temps they have been subjected to? Are they being protected in the winter?

[hardyjim]

My Sabals are growing in zone 5 protected to z7,so they have seen single digits at least,this is what
defoliated them.
I protect mine so you can't say they are zone 5 palms.
They are all at the point of putting out nice divided leaves that are lifting up on their stems/petioles
so not at the full range of there hardiness at this size.
I have McCurtain(5)seedlings with 3 straps,Brazoria (5)one has been in the ground 4-5 yrs the rest are
seedlings with 3 straps, 6 (as mentioned)S.louisiana,6 S.lisa.
Probably some others I am forgetting.
The best I would hope for in my zone is for them to get some size and protect from late Dec-March 1.

[canadianplant]

I figured you were protecting them, i didnt mean to assume anything...... Well I guess i could try both LOL...

Heres the real problem im having: Im not sure if I should get seeds, or live plants. I hear sabal seeds are easy, germinating failry quickly (1 - 6 months), even in room amperature. Ive had bad luck germinating palm seeds in the past, but they are alot easier to aquire.

Plants are harder to find for me ( so far) but take the 2 - 3 year wait for them to size up. Older specimin are hardier as well.

But going back to my original question.... do you know of a source in canada, or that ships to canada that has live plants?

[hardyjim]

I sure don't,sorry.

I think getting the biggest plants is best,(easier said then done I know)they will still have to adjust to the cold
no matter the size and sometimes lose whatever leaves they do have until more
resistant leaves come out.

I used to say forget it to growing much from seed but it is quite fun to watch them sprout and
grow up,it is also about the only choice with some hard to find species.
Might as well try it in the mean time,unless you can drive south.

One thing about Sabals,they really don't make good houseplants as growth is sloooow inside,
you really almost need a greenhouse or at least a warm house(in winter)with a lot of direct sunlight-



Good luck-where there's a will,there's a way!

[f1racer]

Canadianplant,

I don't normally post, but I have to agree with hardyjim. I am in 5b Toronto and I heat everything in order for anything to survive long-term in our climate. If you are going to heat, sabal minors will provide the least visual presence and is very slow growing (especially after extensive defoliation). From my experience, needles do much better in my garden. Infact, Trachy F's are less hardy then needles but recovers much faster which is more rewarding as zone pushers. I now grow more trachys than needles/sabals.

[canadianplant]

Jim - That is some good advice. And mabey theyll adapt to the climate faster, havinggrown here inground for longer....... Ive managed to grow a few palsms from seed .. Phoenix Canariensis, Dypsis Lutesence (sp), Dypsis ALbofarinosa ( died from too much heat), and a few other tropicals, philidendrom, and baucarnea.... but ive tried like 15 different kinds of palm/banana seeds, with little success, which is why im tryig to stay away from seed... But you do make a very good point. And seeds are cheaper... if it fails.....


racer - Jim said Sabal "Louisiana" grows much faster, and would be a better choice... although Sabal are slow, and would be slower here probably. Needles are faster then Sabal, and are probably hardier, but as you say, revocer very slowly. Trachys are odd palms. It seems that some are quite hardier hen others , even though they are labeled just "fortunei" ( the one sin bulgaria for example.... or as we seen on here, the dude that made it survive edmonton with no protection!!)

[TerdalFarm]

Racer, thanks for posting! Please let us know more about your plants, perhaps with an "introduction" post.
canadianplant, the only palms I've started from seed are Sabal and for a beginner they are easy.
However, for landscape purposes, I say drive south for a vacation in (e.g.) Florida and bring some large palms back. (Is it true you don't need a phyto. if they are "houseplants"?)
--Erik

[hardyjim]

My Sabals typically grow more than my Needles but Bill seems to get more
growth out of his needles than I do,they are larger.


Palms planted directly in the ground are said to be more hardy than those planted later
but younger palms with strap leaves are WAY less hardy but much easier to protect-
I covered one of my T. Tesan sprouts with a pot and a mound of leaves and dirt-
it made it,no problem,no heat!
Seeds sprouted in the ground put down a serious tap root,this is vital since it is their lifeline
and it reaches unfrozen ground,usually.

Your going to need protection and some heat no matter what you do, so........

[canadianplant]

Growth, and speed of growth are dependant on certain factors as well. Spring temps, winter temps, soil life, animals/insect life, sunshine, humidity, night temps, the "bloodline" of the plant your growing, humidity, rain... the list goes on and on. I can have 2 needle palms, from the same source, and place them in 2 differnt yards, or even 2 different areas of the yard, and still have 2 different growth rates.

If your soil is "dead", there isnt much chance of any plant growing to potential, then if its growing in nice humusy, alive soil, rich in microrganisms. "Pests" can have a big effect on growth of any plant as well. If you dont have the right predator to pray ratio, they will effect your plants growth as well.

[BILL MA]

I still think Louisiana or Brazoria is your best bet. People in the south this year had much less damage on the Brazoria's then Louisiana's for some reason. They weren't hardened off though, 60's and 70's everyday to low to mid teens.

I really think you'll be disappointed with a minor unless you can get a 15+ gallon one to start, like I said in line 2 just my opinion.

Bill

[BILL MA]

Deep south that is, like Houston TX area for instance.

[canadianplant]

FINE CRUSH MY DREAMS!!!! jk LOL

This is exactly why im part of this ( and other) forums, To speak to people who have way more experience then me, and hopefulu to avoid mistakes. Never feel like your being the "bearer of bad news " to me. Id rather hear it, so I can reserch it, then kill the poor plant. From what im hearing, im assuming your not telling me not to get it, but jsut be aware, that the odds are, it wont be as majestic as Im thinking it would be.

So with all the info ive gotten ( thanks to you all, and a big thanks to Bill) im second guessing trying the Sabal. So, are my only good bets T Fortunei, and Needle palm??? Is there anything that you would reccomend me trying, that is a "maybe"?

[BILL MA]

I'm not saying not to try them Canadianplant I just don't want you to be disappointed when you have a zone 5 winter and they still look beat up. I wish you nothing but success don't take my advice the wrong way. ( I don't think you do) I only want you to have a palm that will grow well once warm weather shows up.

Trachy is most likely your best bet, they don't take a ton of heat to grow, there tough as nails, and they look like a palm tree too! Your going to need a heat source of some kind and with that being said needle and trachy will bring you the most happiness.

Bill

[hardyjim]

If you have a south wall that has a dark surface or you can put down some dark mulch,
rock etc,you may be able to create enough warmth to get a Sabal moving-good luck.

Don't forget to update us on what you try

[canadianplant]

Well, for the pst week and a half weve been over 28C, and its been feeling like 35-43C. I think from june - september we have warm enough temps for it for sure. The Early spring ( say... february - may), is when it would start to take off after its winter in its habitat. So I would have to try to boost the temps around that time to probably even have a chance at some growth.

I like the dark wall idea. There is a garden bed I have where its about a foot and a half away from a red wall ( darkish), and theres a stone path between the wall, and the bed. Its one of the warmest spots I have ( the warmest is by a white wall that reflects heat and sunlight downwards, instead of holding the heat, which could also be useful). Id probably have to make a mini greenhouse over it, and throw in some waterbottles to try and hold some of that daytime heat, as well as some large rock. I know just having some decent sized rocks around the garden bed can raise the zone by 1, and even give me an extra few weeks on my growing season.

Id love to try and get some seed from that guy in bulgaria. He seems to have one of the hardiest stocks.......

[hardyjim]

Hmmmmm,seeds?

I still have some Bulgarian Trachy seeds left(about 50-60)and 180 in moist perlite-
some are just starting to to push their first spears out of the leaf sheath.

[canadianplant]

excellent! FRom what ive read, their rated 5C colder then the usual Trachy.

Now, trachys seem to prefer cool climates ( ie, irland, the UK, netherlands, west coast north america, mabey even maritime canada), and our temps are generaly cool, but june/july/august and early sept ( sometimes even till mid october), the daytime temps are 25C plus, and heavy heavy humidity. The last 2 weeks have been 30C..... Im not to sure how it can take the heat.

[hardyjim]

As far as heat goes with Trachys.......

the better they are watered in the more they can handle-
you can't over water in hot weather!-
but they do need to be trenched!

[BILL MA]

100f and 102f on consecutive days here last week with direct south exposure and not a blemish.

[Paul Ont]

The 'Bulgarian' Trachys aren't any hardier than 'normal'... If you raise a bunch you're 'sure' to get a couple that handle a bit more cold... But, honestly, -17C (-20C?) rather than -15C isn't that much of a difference when you hit -30C each winter... The fellow in Edmonton showed how Trachy is very tough under snow...

Canadianplant- I've tried Sabals on 4 different occasions and have been disappointed each time. The only one I've had success with (zone 5 and 6 winters) is in a palm house. Even with this, when the temperature in the house hit -15C (one night, heat failed) even though temps went above 0 each day, it was almost completely topkilled... The needled fared slightly better, and the same temps caused less damage this year.

Of the ones that I've tried, I've noticed no difference in hardiness. I planted 2 side by side (3 gallons, one was 'regular' one was 'Mccurtain' from Gary's in NC) and protected them with a leaf enclosure and a frost cloth wrap and some plastic to exclude moisture... Both were completely top killed (rot, I think) and only the 'regular' tried to come back growing 1/2 of a deformed leaf before winter. It died last year.

Don't let me discourage you, I think you should try, just be aware that the bigger the better, newly planted palms are less hardy than established ones, they are EXTREMELY prone to rot, and you'll have to play around with quite a few to find one that will work. If it were me I'd look up Amazing Gardens in OKC and get seeds of S. minor 'Arkansas', S. minor 'NE Texas', and S. minor 'McCurtain'. They should be ready to plant out in 3-4 years if you push them!

If you still want Miscanthus or Trachycarpus (BC form, as hardy as any of the other selections you've heard mentioned) let me know!

[canadianplant]

Thanks bill and paul........

Paul I remember the pics of the Sabals, same with the needle palm.
Thanks for the advice. It looks like I should try a cold hardier palm before I go to the sabal, or at least a more reliable one.

The trachycarpus isnt a bad idea. My phyllosachys Aureosulcata is doing excellent ( pushed up 10 new culms!!). Ive been reading about permaculture, and wouldnt mind trying a "guild" with my bamboo. These plants are generaly from the same areas ( central and east china). Grow some asian veggies as a ground cover, throw in some bleeding hearsts and Lilum, the trachy and the bamboo, im in china town

[hardyjim]

[quote="Paul Ont"]The 'Bulgarian' Trachys aren't any hardier than 'normal'... If you raise a bunch you're 'sure' to get a couple that handle a bit more cold... But, honestly, -17C (-20C?) rather than -15C isn't that much of a difference when you hit -30C each winter... The fellow in Edmonton showed how Trachy is very tough under snow...












Is this based on your experience or your opinion?

[Paul Ont]

Both. I got a bunch of seed from Kiril about 8 years ago now... I never had any luck with them, and certainly they don't perform any better than any other fortunei I've tried. Certainly there is variability in the Trachycarpus fortunei 'complex' but I find it difficult to believe, from what I've seen, that there is anything more than about 5f worth of wiggle room in terms of cold tolerance...

Tim (MA) also grew hundreds of seedlings of this 'strain' in his lawn. I don't think the pictures are online anymore, but, if memory serves they came through the first winter looking ok (good snow cover) but the next year it hit 5f (-15C) with little snow and they were completely burnt and, I believe, none survived. Perhaps if Tim reads this he can elaborate, and/or correct any half-truths herein.

I have opinions on Trachycarpus, but, generally, these are justifiable. I think I said this before, but when you see a new 'wonder' palm every year or so (and without fail these prove little different from plants already in cultivation) you get jaded and skeptical when new information is presented (or old, dismissed, information is rehashed as something new)...

[hardyjim]

I get what your saying and I don't disagree on any one point.

I would say that any palm tested needs to be healthy and into a mature
leaf growing faze.


I think to have an accurate measure of palms hardiness you need to have several of each,healthy
in vigorous growth mode and in the same conditions.

I find Kiril's palms quite interesting because they are similar to other Fortunei that grow thick trunks
and stiff leaves and usually are quite creepy.


If you look at Johns biggest Trachy you see a very thick trunked palm with stiff leaves,
whether this trait ends up being one of increased hardiness or not,I prefer the look of these.


Tesan,Takil,Bulgarians,Naini Tal all exhibit this style of growth/trait.

I was looking at Garry's picture of Tesan yesterday and I have to say I really like the look of these,
I kind of thought this trait would not be one to carry over to the seeds/seedlings of Tesan but happily
it does!

I can't wait to see what Tesan and Misan look like when they get bigger.

The Tesan seedlings and my more mature Tesan are the stoutest growing Trachys
I have seen,I will come back with a recent pick.

[canadianplant]

I found some trachycarpus nanus seeds up fer sale...... i couldnt pass this up.... and their species gueranteed

[BILL MA]

Well Paul,
I just so happen to have a few of those Bulgarians left grown from Tim. In A few years they will be planted out in the ground when I fell there ready and with the creeper trunk I bet a no heat cover will do the trick. One of them is just about ready now here it is. Not really a great picture since I just took it in the dark, the palm is bigger then it looks.



Bill

[canadianplant]

very nice dude!

[hardyjim]

Nice Bill

At the rate those 2 are creeping away from each
other,they may never see each other again.

[BILL MA]

Tim told me that one seed split into two to create this palm, pretty cool!

[canadianplant]

I had a Bird of Paridise seed that was a "siemese" seed. Not sure if the plant is gonna grow or not..