Trachy Palm in Edmonton

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:16 pm

Hey everyone:

I had planted a windmill in Edmonton in my backyard last year and left it with no protection all winter. All of the leaves browned off as you would expect them to, but as I checked the inside of the crown today, it seems like a new fan is pushing out. I may be crazy but its green colored. I'll keep everyone updated. If so this would probably be the coldest any windmill palm have ever survived. -35c this winter!! and many days of -20. I bought a yucca filamentosa the other day also and its flowering and has a nice little trunk forming on it! I'll post pictures tonight of the yucca and than the palm if it pushes out anymore.

Yuri · Post by **Yuri** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:30 pm

That's kinda crazy, hats off to you! Any pics of it? I guess you had some snow in Edmonton which might have helped?

Regards,
Yuri

JackLord · Post by **JackLord** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:33 pm

Impressive. Imagine if you protected it.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:17 pm

You have to post some pics of this trachy!

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:26 pm

I will post them if the fan comes out any further. Right now its very small and I want to make sure its 100% alive, but it isn't pulling out so I'm assuming its still good. It was covered by about 1-6 inches of snow from December to March.

Cowtown Palm Society · Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:13 pm

Nate, this would indeed be remarkable! The skeptic in me says impossible, but I'd love to be proven wrong!

serj · Post by **serj** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:19 am

What size had this palm before getting some damages?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:22 am

Also interested in the size of this palm,the snow would have protected it from the deep cold.

I left a couple small ones out with a cover over them,it did not keep them warm at all,
they both saw -12f and months of below freezing weather.
One has died but the other is growing,very slooooooooooooowly.

This pic is a few months old-

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10017.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10017.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:11 am

Nate, I'll wait for your update with interest.
Imagine! A -35C Trachy...wow.

That's one for the record books!
Pls keep us posted.

I hope your frond looks like Jim's...that'd be a very good sign.
Barb

serj · Post by **serj** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:43 am

I think that the surviving of that trachy may be caused by layer of snow under the palm.

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:46 am

That will be crazy if it comes back from that, but very cool.

Bill

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 pm

I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.

Just amazing

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:35 am

Everyone, the new palm is slowly rising out of the crown!!! It is a little burnt on the top but its all green underneath that and its probably gained an inch the past couple days with the near 80's weather. Give me a week and I'll post a picture, I want it to be a little bit bigger and we have mid 80's weather coming monday and tuesday.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:06 pm

I take my hat off to you...and that Trachy.

(Mumbling: so why the heck did I lose my Naini Tal?) rhetorical, don't bother answering.

Too bad you don't have both male and female.
I'd want seeds of those for sure.
Barb

Okanagan desert-palms · Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:46 pm

Nate that`s fantastic. Now you can post a pic so the rest of us can look at the resurrection of the cold hardiest palm in the world. When it survives I bet you will protect it a lot better this winter?

John

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:44 pm

Most likely!!! Its still growing, when it hits about 6 inches I'll post a picture. Should only be a couple days with how fast its coming back.

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:59 pm

Here are pictures of the palm fan coming out of the crown. I counted 3 new fans coming out!!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23840945@N05/4737520522/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23840945@N05/4736883843/

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:08 pm

Amazing!
Give it a real good Summer. It's earned it. --Erik

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:42 pm

Thank you everyone for the support. Cheers to all palm lovers!! This palm will not give up. If I can give it a little love the next couple winters, perhaps I can get some seeds if I get the opposite sex windmill palm. This one is Canadian grown in a field near Vancouver. No wonder its tough as bullets!!!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:23 am

That's crazy! One for the record books! Hope you get a nice long hot summer to let her grow a bit! Did you treat it with anything before you left it over the winter?

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:11 am

Dude, where did you aquire this thing ??? LOL Edmonton is 2 zones colder then I am, where the temps regularly go to -40c during december and january ( not all month, but they have days every year wheere the temps drop that low), And I would love to try and grow one LOL. Is it in a microclimate?

Edmonton is a fairly dry place, especialy in the winter, and its climates is caused largley bu the rockies ( they are quite far in comparison to other cities), and are more influenced by the harsh actic winds in the winter. Whats your secret? Voodoo? Whichcraft? Sacrifices? LOL

Cowtown Palm Society · Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:41 pm

Crazy! I've been amazed by the resiliency of this plant before, but this is just insane! An Edmonton winter unprotected? It really doesn't get much colder in the civilized world! Trachys, the newest zone 3 perennial?

Nate....seriously, like NO protection whatsoever?! Gotta tell ya dude, it's almost unbelievable! Very cool stuff indeed-it has to be a record without a doubt.

Duncan

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:13 am

Cowtown where were you when I lived in calgary

LOL

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:39 am

Both of the tiny ones(like the one pictured above),of mine are both now dead.

To much much water (14+")this month for palms- 'to close to the edge'-they fell off!

Lesson,palms unprotected and on the verge of death are very susceptible to it

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:59 am

Sorry, Jim.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:45 am

Interesting on the survival of the Trachy. I've found that under snow they tend to die back but come back... I've had one come back after -32C with snow. It hung on until we had a winter to -22C (this past winter) without snow... 4 years, really it's not a bad record!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:23 pm

****** Plays "Taps" for Jims palms

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:48 pm

Don't cry for me Argentina!

I had already over-planted were they were so no worries-these were
seedlings that were thrown into a palm I ordered.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:15 am

AHHH still sad to hear..... and its good to hear im not the only one "adding on" to my plant orders LOL

henry5 zone5 · Post by **henry5 zone5** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:37 pm

Bravo !!!!!!!!!!! it's UNBELIEVABLE what are u doing with it this next winter ?

Henry :

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:12 am

Canadian Plant:

When you see that Edmonton is below -40c, that is the International Airport readings, 20km outside of the city in a sinkhole. Its always on average 10 degrees colder than the city centre and my backyard seems to mimic city centre. It was -35C this year as a low (-46 airport) and that was one day in the morning. On average Edmonton normally hits between -28 and -34 as an absolute low for one or two days a year. The extended cold sits in the -20's for a couple more days than that. Either way, its brutal compared to most cities in this world.

I repeat there was zero protection with the exception of the natural snow cover that fell on it and stayed for a couple months. I had another poster on a different website that has been downright rude about me posting this and he said:

Nate,

I simply do not believe a Windmill palm overwintered in Alberta "unprotected". I lived in Chilliwack, BC and could not get that palm to survive there even. Not until you reach Langley in the Lower Mainland do you see larger specimans that clearly have overwintered many years. But Edmonton? Come on?! How is it that a London Plane tree proves to be dicey (in hardiness) yet a Windmill palm tree pulled through the winter ok?

Thanks for the good laughs...

Its made me happy that there is a website like this where everyone is supportive. I have no point to lie about something like this. It will not make me famous.... Thank you everyone for the good discussion. I will decide on winter protection in the fall. I will update pictures in a month.

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:14 am

Oh and I got it from www.tropic.ca This guy grows them on the west coast.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:13 pm

Thanks for the web link, great pictures.

This past winter was pretty unusual for most of BC and some of Alberta...we had cold in mid-December for a couple of weeks and then it was no snow for the duration.
My unheated NainiTal, covered with only an inverted garbage can and some tarps--didn't survive, when other Nainitals at similar temps, but considerably more snowcover did make it.

It's in the genes, and we're all hoping we've got "good ones".
Obviously Nate's got one.

Barb

nlafrance3 · Post by **nlafrance3** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Thank you barb. I have been conditioning it every winter but not to take -30 or worse! This palm deserves my attention this winter.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:52 pm

dude dont worry about non believers. Hell even it if was specilized onditions, or a one in a million chance.. the fact of the matter is it survived.

I also hear you about temp differences. My city is rated zone 3, but my area is some where around 4 or 5.

When you post mor epics, can you take some so we can see the conditions is growing in please?

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:34 am

Nate,
I believe you!
That buddy is going to get so heat this year though right?

Bill

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:55 am

So far the west cost has been getting the crappy end of the stick this year. They got some really nice wawrm temps early this year, but also had snow till the end of may, and many days in may that were around 9C ( at the airport). Even Calgary has been cool and wet compared to last year. Vancouver was almost warmer during the olympics, making many vacouverites "wishing it was february again".

Mind you, Canada itself had a warm snowless winter in almost the entire country, especialy the east. Almost all the cold and show went to the midwest/eastern half of the USA..

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:05 am

I don't think that anyone would be foolish enough to think that a Trachycarpus fortunei could survive an air temperature of -35C. It's not, physiologically speaking, possible for the palm to survive that low temperature. The best that a Trachycarpus can handle, and maintain foliage is something around -18C (0f). There are reports of SURVIVAL of lower temps but at a certain point the extreme cold and duration will kill the palm.

The reason that these palms seem to be hardy to extreme temperatures are many. First, when the extreme low temps hit (i.e. below -18C) the palm has to be covered in some way if it is to survive with foliage intact and/or living viable bud tissue. I've used frost cloth in the past, but snow would be better (it's a better insulator, and can be much thicker than the 2 cm thick frost cloth. So, if the outside air temp does hit -35C the palm can survive if it is covered and/or there is a thick layer of snow. The palm itself may not even see temps below -15C! What kills the foliage in this case is suffocation. Palms have no true dormancy period (they will continue to grow) and when they can't access water from the roots the leaves will continue to transpire and the palm will get drought stressed (leading to foliar death, and either a dark greenish colour or brown when the air temps warm up in spring.) which actually improves cold tolerance (many of the same processes protect against both drought and cold temperature)...

Anyway- to the point, yes small palms can easily survive a zone 3 Edmonton (or even zone 3 Thunder Bay) winters, provided they aren't actually exposed to temps below, say, -25C or below -20C for extended periods (i.e. the bud tissue remains viable). Jim's post's earlier this year are examples of what can happen after cold temps, and subsequent rotting, occur in the heart of palms. Some of these will rebound as he has shown, but they are of little use as ornamentals, they are merely discussion pieces. I've seen Sago's act the same way here in Toronto, not pretty to look at, but interesting nonetheless.

I've not discussed rot in this post, but it is also a huge issue, and probably kills more palms than the extreme cold (esp. in places with high humidity and/or freeze/thaw cycles over the winter)!!!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:37 pm

I think it depends on how it survives, like paul, states. Is it really worth to have a palm tree thats only a ground cover?

As far as it surviving -35C. I dont think it technicaly did. Sure the air temp was -35, but placement, and ground heating, and how much sun can make its area warmer. Then theres the warmer winter this year, on top of that, edmontons regular winter warmups ( I wont call these chinooks, but the warm ups are reminicent of Calgarys Chinook winds), I wouldnt be suprised if the palm really didnt see temps below -25 or even -20C. I guess in simple terms.... you got very very lucky. Im glad your taking different procations this year.... I bet itll survive quite nicley there with some persistance, and patience. Post some pics after it gets some heat

Also, you have to think of variability of the seeds. Gardeners are pushing the limits with these palms, and each generation of seeds give the chance of having a super hardy palm, or one more hardy then the original. Sure this takes dozens or hundreds of years to happen on a mass scale, but these plants are being pushed to the limits, and so their offspring will be more able to handle the temps of the growing area, probably better then the parent. I dont think it would be to farfetched to say, the plant you have, may be hardier then most trachys...