Camellia japonica, sasanqua, oleifera and sinensis

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:11 pm

Hi guys,

This may sound a bit extreme, but I have the feeling that we might be able to successfully overwinter Camellias in z6... Imaginge, during the stupid socialist regime in Hungary - following the Russian example - the political leadership ordered scinentists to try out tropical/subtropical plants in Hungary, whcih is a mixture climate with a moderetaly continental climate. So, cotton, orange, rubber Taraxacum, etc.. were grown, with not much success. Against all odds, however, tea growing showed nice results. So, Camellia sinensis var sinensis could be one option for us in SW Ontario, provided that we do all soil preparations.

I heard that there is a new line of varieties from the US, boasting of extremeley hardy Camellias, but I do not know much about them. By any chance, does any of you have such a plant in your gardens? If yes, any pics available?

Take care,
Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:49 pm

Rob,
do you mean like this:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/V3 ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S2MgV ... GP1088.JPG" /></a>

I was as foolish as those old Soviet task-masters and planted this in September, 2009. In a spot where I knew it would be blasted by winds fresh from Siberia. It dutifully gave me pink blossoms in early winter, not knowing what was coming. This photo shows what it had in store.

Amazingly, it survived and is even trying to grow some now.

--Erik

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:48 pm

I bought one last month and I'm still in the process of finding an suitable planting site.
These Camillia are quite a regular sight in gardens here and I took a liking to this one, Camillia 'Bob Hope'.

Cheers, Barrie.

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:55 am

Wow, I never thought they were so tough guys. Erik's baby really got his hit all right. I read that they do not need the same acidness in soil terms, like they would be ok with a PH of around 6....
Do you have experience in this field, too?

Thanks for all!!!!!!
Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:25 am

My home pH meter is an inexpensive "Rapitest" unit. It says the soil around my Camellia is 7.1. I get the same for ever spot in my garden and in every container, so I don't trust it.
--Erik

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:13 am

C. japonica - Reliably hardy (long term) down to zone 7. Temps much below the 0ºF to 5ºF range for more than a few days, expect trouble.
They are at their clean green best around here. Some species are quite frost sensitive.

Cheers, Barrie.

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:30 pm

Thanks guys for your comments! (I'll try Camellias, moreover, I'll go for the real tea, too. Imagine, sipping away your own brew..)
Rob

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Sat May 01, 2010 6:38 pm

Erik,

Sorry to come back to the same topic (as my daughter would say: Daddy, it is so last month

), but do you by any chance recall what variety you have? I am still amazed by your picture.....

I have started collecting estimates for some soil work in the garden, then comes Camellia Forest in NC...

THANKS!!!!
Rob

Jova · Post by **Jova** » Sat May 01, 2010 9:04 pm

I'm definitely going to be following this thread, since I've had the idea of growing these plants in my 6a garden for some time! I saw some great deals on these when I was in Virginia Beach on vacation a couple weeks ago, but just not enough room in the car since the southern magnolia took up all the extra space:)

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun May 02, 2010 5:56 pm

Rob,
sorry to take so long to get back to you. I "try" to write down my plants but for some reason never wrote this one down.
As I was doing some cleaning in the Gazebo today (I appropriated it as a staging place for winter protection stuff) I found the tag from the camellia I impulsively bought and planted in September.
The tag says, Camelia japonica "Winter's Star" and claims a hardiness to zone 7. I got to the bottom of Zone 7 this winter, it was not at all established and it was in a horrible microclimate but survived with only some leaf loss and is growing well this spring.
For comparison with other BLEs planted in 2009, a Photinia in the ground since May died. No protection--those are supposed to be safe here. Dwarf burford holly looked great all winter. Two of three Euonymous fortunei made it and are growing great now. All but one Nandina died, but they went into winter suffering horribly from summer heat. Indian hawthorn is recovering nicely after ~50% defoliation and is even blooming now. I protected it like a palm, though, as I wasn't sure about it. Golden bamboo (P. aurea) died to the ground but two tiny shoots are coming up 3'/1m from the main clump. Dwarf pomegranate (Punica) was not a BLE but I thought it'd be a deciduous shrub. No, died to the roots but it is coming back from roots.
Back to the main topic, yes, try Camellia. Search for varieties reputed to be winter hardy, and site them and care for them better than I did.
--Erik

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:29 pm

Thanks so much, Erik! I am having my garden soil changed - being pure clay, or concrete I should say - and connecting it to a Stewartia pseudocamellia, I'll start with a real tea (C. sinensis var sinensis) hedge. It can take even full sun! As an accent plant, I am going to use C. oleifera Lu Shan, wich was the parent of most cold hardy hybrids. This should be OK, too, in Oakville. Once these grow to a reasonable height like 2 feet, I am going to plant some more sensitive C. varieties in front of it.

I think Nandina would be more than proper as company. Also, I will consider some clumping bamboos, tree peonies, Sarcococca, Rhododendrons, Pieris and hardy Puchias (F. magellanica). I am going to add 3 Trachy wagnerii, too, to increase the scores of the game.

I hardly wait to do the planting and to send some picks.

In the meantime, my front garden is getting some attention, but still have to wait for the Town's approval for the full planting (Trachy, needle, Sabal, Yucca gloriosa, LAgerstroemia x 'Zuni', Nandina, fig 'Brown Turkey', Vitex, Ceanothus, Fuchia, Hydrangea macrophylla and Clethra... Half of the plants are already purchased and begging for some planting, but sorry, guys, I need the stamp.....

Rob

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:29 pm

Thanks so much, Erik! I am having my garden soil changed - being pure clay, or concrete I should say - and connecting it to a Stewartia pseudocamellia, I'll start with a real tea (C. sinensis var sinensis) hedge. It can take even full sun! As an accent plant, I am going to use C. oleifera Lu Shan, wich was the parent of most cold hardy hybrids. This should be OK, too, in Oakville. Once these grow to a reasonable height like 2 feet, I am going to plant some more sensitive C. varieties in front of it.

I think Nandina would be more than proper as company. Also, I will consider some clumping bamboos, tree peonies, Sarcococca, Rhododendrons, Pieris and hardy Puchias (F. magellanica). I am going to add 3 Trachy wagnerii, too, to increase the scores of the game.

I hardly wait to do the planting and to send some picks.

In the meantime, my front garden is getting some attention, but still have to wait for the Town's approval for the full planting (Trachy, needle, Sabal, Yucca gloriosa, LAgerstroemia x 'Zuni', Nandina, fig 'Brown Turkey', Vitex, Ceanothus, Fuchia, Hydrangea macrophylla and Clethra... Half of the plants are already purchased and begging for some planting, but sorry, guys, I need the stamp.....

Rob

bananieru · Post by **bananieru** » Thu May 06, 2010 3:18 am

Rob,

Where did you find Trachy wagnerii in Southern Ontario?

Tavi

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu May 06, 2010 7:06 am

One part of why I moved out of Tulsa was their restrictions on gardens. I thought my farm was in the country but after buying it learned it is technically in the city of Bixby, a Tulsa suburb. So far I haven't had trouble with things like a front-yard compost pile but that might change if housing developments spread out this way.
So, once you get that stamp, you'll have a great garden. We'll all want photos!
I bought Euonymous "chollipo" and two Celeste figs yesterday. The nursery was out of winter jasminne and Indian Hawthorn.

Also a Bougainvillea and Mandevillia. The Boug. will go into a hanging basket. The new Mandevillia will replace the Passiflora I hoped would over-winter but didn't. I'll dig the Mandevillia and bring it in for the winter. I did that with two this past winter and they did great indoors; even in a rather cold room they grew a tiny bit.
Still agonizing over whether to buy a large Sabal palmetto for sale in a nearby parking lot, trucked up from Florida.
--Erik

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Fri May 07, 2010 5:50 pm

I actually have two huge C/J that are planted on the SE corner of my house, shielded from winds, they have gotten so big and I have had to cut them back from the house in the late summer months, they bloom beautiful fragrant pink flowers in October/November. I rarely see them on that sideoff the house as I never really venture out there, maybe they are doing so well because I leave them alone to their own devices.....??
Pic attached from last fall blooms.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Fri May 07, 2010 8:25 pm

Great photo, Mike!
Do you happen to know the variety?
--Erik

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Sat May 08, 2010 7:04 pm

Hi all,

Sorry for the late reply; I am studying for my exam next week.

Tavi, I have no idea yet where to get the Trachi wagneri

However, I started to make some connections and extend my search to the US, especially to North Carolina. The tea (Camellia Sinensis var sinensis Small leaf version) will come from the Camellia Forest Nursery, for example. I hope I am going to find the wagnerii in that state, because the Florida stock might be a bit sensitive, I guess... The bamboo will come from BC (Bambooworld). There is a big bamboo retailer in Ohio, but just confirmed that it is extremely difficult for him to ship from US to Canada (extra inspection costs of about $75/plant, etc..!!!!)

Erik, I know that agony about the Sabal. It may be a bit sensitive in the first couple of winters, would you agree? Francko showed a few beautiful pics of S. palmetto from - I think - Tulsa and Oklahoma city in his book (palms won't grow here.... oh, BTW, what he called Araucaria was actually a Cunninghamia..) , you are basically there, eh? ( I would definitely buy it, not that I want to push it.... oh yes, I want to

)

Mike, that picture is the last stab in my back. Just a sheer beauty. I want my Camellias!!! NOW!

(for fun: I keep calling the city hall. The responsible person for my permit is not a gardener but an engineer. Sometimes a meeting, sometimes other urgent issues prevent him from stamping my paper. Once I was told that my request was already on his desk (wow!), but that was a week ago...

Anyway, I'll have to wait with the pics, sorry. Rob

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:13 pm

As for the variety i know it cam in pots six years ago as "Camelia Japonica/Drama Girl' they smell really good too. I love thatthey bloom in October and November. They really got tall this year from all the snow and rain.

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon May 24, 2010 4:58 pm

Thanks.
For the record, although the tag on mine said Camellia japonica "Winter's Star", I am pretty sure "Winter's Star" in a hybrid developed by a William Ackerman. --Erik

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Tue May 25, 2010 3:44 am

Are yours out int he open or sheltered from winds? And, do they also bloom in fall?

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Tue May 25, 2010 8:11 pm

I just bought the book "Beyond the Camellia Belt" by Ackermann (I ordered it from the Camellia Forest Nursery in NC) and I found "Winter Star" Erik, you were right. It is the hybrid of Camellia oleifera ' Lu Shan Snow' and Camellia hiemalis 'Showa-no-sakae'. Blooms from early October tthrough November. HArdy to -5F (-20C). Excellent hybrid!
Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue May 25, 2010 8:23 pm

Mike,
it is sited on the NE side of my Gazebo (the big pink thing in my "wife" thread; also visible on the google earth thread) so it gets afternoon shade all year.
It gets blasted by winter winds.
Rob,
it had great blooms in late Fall, as the winter jasmine was firing up.
I'd like to find some more plants that would give me blooms in January/February. Would any Camellias do that?
--Erik

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Wed May 26, 2010 7:08 am

The only thing I can get to bloom a little bit that time of year is Mediterranean heather, and even that is a crap shoot. Sometimes they are snow covered that time of year.

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:01 pm

Erik,

I just checked my Camellia book by Ackerman for Jan-Feb blooming camellias. The ones I fond are the following (in order of blooming period, the last two blooming in February and the previous ones in Dec through Jan):

Ashton Snow, Winter's Snowman, Winter's Toughie, Winter's Joy, Winter's Peony, Winter's Fire, Winter's Darling, Winter's Interlude, Elaine Lee, Winter's Waterlilly, Winter's Cupid, Winter's Beauty, Fairweather Favourite, Ashton's Pink, Pink Icicle and Spring Cardinal.

All of these guys are good at least until - 20 C, with half of them even down to - 26 C!!!!

Good luck, Erik!
Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:04 pm

Thanks!
I'll try to track them down.
One of my silly gardening goals is to always have something in bloom. Right now I rely on winter jasmine, which is super. --Erik

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:14 pm

Erik,

Is the winter jasmine the Jasminum nudiflorum? Does it start blooming already in the dead winter in Oklahoma? If yes, your place is already a spot to envy.... Have you tried crepe myrtles?

Rob

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:22 pm

Rob, yes, Jasminum nudiflorum. Started blooming in December, took all of January off, started up again latest February and had sporadic blooms into early May.
Hard to find for some reason. I'll buy several more when I can.
How far north do folks grow this?
--Erik

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:28 pm

The Jasminum nudiflorm should be OK in zone 6 and maybe zone 5. It is a weed in Hungary, even in the coldest places with zone 5... The only thing is that the flowers may be frozen off in mid winter if they come out too early for the location.

Have you tried Laurocerasus officinalis, too? It is pretty rare in North America, but another great BLE for warmer places. Nice white flowers in summer.

Rob

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:30 pm

Oh Erik,

Two more jasmines to try:

- Jasminum humile - nice evergreen with yellow flowers, shrub of 1.5-2 m tall, blooming in the summer and
- Jasmimum fruticans - very compact evergreen with yellow flowers, shrub of about 1.5 m tall, blooming in the summer, too.

Rob

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Thu May 27, 2010 9:12 pm

Man Guy's,
I have the same book a Rob. I think you have to go to DC to get the different types. I would love to have some nice sized ones of the hardy cultivars.

Might be a good reason to head 7 hours south to the VA boarder, I'm always up for a good plant hunt!

Bill

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Sat May 29, 2010 5:23 am

Hi Sidpook,

Nice! Aren't they beautiful? That is why I will make the nursery rich.....
Would it be possible to have a pic on the site, too? I just do not know if I dared to put it into teh SE exposure, but you may have half shade there; that is why it would be great to see it.

Thanks for posting!!!
Rob

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Sun May 30, 2010 6:00 am

Rob,
Are you starting a nursery? If so good for you man, best of luck too! I must of missed that in the post when I just jumped into it.

Bill

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Sun May 30, 2010 5:02 pm

Hi Bill,

No, unfortunately, I am not starting a nursery, being an accountant... But I am a great fan of exotics, that was my masters thesis as a horticulturist. So I am starting to develop an Asian garden in one part of my garden, I am building an exotic gartden in the front section and in the third, I am planning something like a native theme. In the Asian garden, I am going to plant real tea plants (C. sinensis var. sinensis) and some light shade giving crape myrtles and Cornus kousa. Once these get established, I am going to put some more Camellias in front of these guys, into the developed partial shade. It is so nice to see some results on Camellias in these zones in this mail stream, eh!!!!!!

Bill, your garden is just one wonder; it deserves a pilgrimage in itself.

Regards,
Rob

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Thanks Rob!

I looked on the web site of the camellia forest in NC and almost chocked my self. I'll see what I can come up with for hardy ones, not that you live anywhere near me but it might be worth the trip. I'll find them wholesale somewhere, they are beautiful and tougher then people think as you know.

Your plans for building a asian garden sound terrific, I really look forward to seeing the pictures down the road.

Do you think you could pull off a silk tree up there? They do really well here, another I would like to carry. I'll look into that too

Bill

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:13 pm

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your nice words. Imagine, I just discovered a silk tree in the neighbourhood. It is about 10 years old, 3 m high. It has just leaved out 2 days ago, that is how I recognized it. I do not know yet if it will be able to push out flowers, too, though.... Tough guy, eh?

Rob

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:31 pm

ROBRETI wrote:Hi Bill,

Thanks for your nice words. Imagine, I just discovered a silk tree in the neighbourhood. It is about 10 years old, 3 m high. It has just leaved out 2 days ago, that is how I recognized it. I do not know yet if it will be able to push out flowers, too, though.... Tough guy, eh?

Rob

Hi Rob,
I'll get some pics of my camelia soon up on here. Ijust cut a lot off of it actually this week. It was cutting off my path to the fishpond.

And by silk tree do you mean what we call mimosa trees here or a silk floss tree???
Thanks
mike

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:24 pm

Hello Robretti,

Here is one pic of the camelia on the side of the house: It is facing 98 degrees east to be exact, gets morning sun in spring summer and is totally shielded from winds....I'll get some more in bloom later in the season.

ROBRETI · Post by **ROBRETI** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:39 pm

Hi Sidpook,

Beautiful!!!! And how it is shooting out, just lovely, you convinced me!

As for the silk tree, it is the Albizia julibrissin. Its story is amazing. It started as a very tender greenhouse plant and due to homwowners trying their luck (or being forgetful), they started to emerge as year-round elements of gardens. I thought that they were zone 7 plants, so you can imagine what pleasure it gave me to see a nice tree in the neighbourhood...

Rob

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:08 am

ROBRETI wrote:Hi Sidpook,

Beautiful!!!! And how it is shooting out, just lovely, you convinced me!

As for the silk tree, it is the Albizia julibrissin. Its story is amazing. It started as a very tender greenhouse plant and due to homwowners trying their luck (or being forgetful), they started to emerge as year-round elements of gardens. I thought that they were zone 7 plants, so you can imagine what pleasure it gave me to see a nice tree in the neighbourhood...

Rob

Nice! So then I do think it is the mimosa tree we have all over the place here. The seeds drop and they shoot up everywhere. i just cut one down in my back yard behind the barn and the shoots are still coming up fromthe ground. They grow sooooo quickly too....They smell really fragrant in summer also!

sidpook · Post by **sidpook** » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:01 pm

sidpook wrote:
ROBRETI wrote:Hi Sidpook,

Beautiful!!!! And how it is shooting out, just lovely, you convinced me!

As for the silk tree, it is the Albizia julibrissin. Its story is amazing. It started as a very tender greenhouse plant and due to homwowners trying their luck (or being forgetful), they started to emerge as year-round elements of gardens. I thought that they were zone 7 plants, so you can imagine what pleasure it gave me to see a nice tree in the neighbourhood...

Rob
Nice! So then I do think it is the mimosa tree we have all over the place here. The seeds drop and they shoot up everywhere. i just cut one down in my back yard behind the barn and the shoots are still coming up fromthe ground. They grow sooooo quickly too....They smell really fragrant in summer also!

Here is a pic of a Mimosa tree like a phoenix rising out of the ashes....They are invincible.....and grow so fast!!!
It is on the sid eof my barn behind the house.

PalmsNorth.com

Camellia japonica, sasanqua, oleifera and sinensis

Camellia japonica, sasanqua, oleifera and sinensis

Camellia in ice

pH

Camellia japonica "Winter's Star"

Gov't Stamp