Rain and winter cover

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:44 pm

Your diligence is paying off Jim.

I would have to stock up on "stay awake" pills...

Sleet/ice should slide right off the plastic (hopefully).
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:41 pm

It has formed an icey coating kind of cool actually,I hope it stays there through the -5F low they are predicting for Sun-Mon.The funny thing about the really cold weather is that my palms stay warmer because I keep the heat on then

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:28 am

Well so far so good,everything looks good so far,of the half dozen palms that had spear pull(because I was to busy to cover them before unexpected early cold following heavy rain)only one has been lost,this palm never was very healthy and I don't think had much energy stored up going into winter.I will probably lose one of my C.cerifera too,but thats to be expected as these palms were very small,had I known better at the time I would have waited until they were bigger or bought larger plants to test outside,everything else looks good,including the other palms with spear pull and if I keep an eye on them through the spring they may just pull through!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:46 am

Jim,
I used to think spear pull was the Final Death of palms.
But you are confident some will recover, which is good.

I've just finished reading Francko's "Palms won't grow here and other myths" and he also says it doesn't mean death.
He even prunes with a hand-saw down to living tissue!
Wish now that I hadn't been so hasty to throw out my Hyophorbe lagnicaulis and Licuala grandis...maybe they would've recovered!

Fingers crossed your arctic blast doesn't hang around.
Are you getting a lot of condensation inside your enclosures?

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:36 am

The risk is always that the cold will get to the palms but actually my palms are warmer during the cold snaps,they stay above freezing the whole time.When it is around 15F or higher at night I don't turn on the heat,so,they are colder during these periods,that said,it looks like it is going to be cold but short lived,we shall see sometimes it sticks around longer than what they say

I have never personally seen a palm come back from spear pull,(I know they do)most of the spear pull I have seen is root induced,the ones that pulled in fall where more the garden variety

caused from crown moisture and sudden cold.I think its rare,if not impossible for a palm to come back from transplant spear pull,(severe root damage)the reason I think these have a shot is that they all still look really healthy,so we'll see,they just need to be brought out of winter carefully.
The smaller greenhouses are pretty much dried out,I actually need to water the palms in these as soon as we get a good strech of above freezing weather(high temps)its better for them to be dry during really cold weather just in case.The large g/house is better but the moisture is trapped in the ground under the pea gravel which is acting like a mulch,when I remove the protection April 1 or so I will get a pitch fork and work the pea gravel deeper into the soil so it drains better and does not hold moisture as long!time consuming but better than digging the whole thing up and replanting everything

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:34 pm

Jim you make an interesting distinction re types of spear pull...

from transplanting (presumably during spring/summer weather), or from rot/moisture/cold during winter.
I'm guessing that transplant spear pull could more easily (if anything's EASY with palms) recover because it's still above freezing temps outdoors. But zone pushers subject them to such horrible conditions when the heat goes off in winter that rot occurs, leading to conditions from which they simply cannot recover.

It blew me away to read of someone taking a handsaw to a palm, cutting down to healthy tissue.
The process worked for him.
I've read doing that with cycads where the caudex is cut beyond the rot, and presto, healthy tissue throws new buds.

15F (-9C) wow, that's cold (for not having any heat on).
Pray that the flap doesn't blow open again.
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:21 am

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:22 am

I have tried cutting down on a few palms but they had died from the bottom up,in most cases,cold roots or frozen soil.
When I bought some palms off e-bay fall of 2007 I thought it would be a good idea to leave them outside on the porch in Nov to help them get some cold hardiness for next year,WRONG! I did nor realize how much root damage occurs with bare root shipping,throw in some cold soil conditions and.....I was lucky any suvived.The reason I have not seen any palms pull through is that all the spear pull I have seen up to this past fall was from root damage,you can see if a palm is in trouble if you pay close attention to the leaves in general but esp the leaf that was last to come out,if it starts to close up you know where the damage is,this usually happens with crown induced spear pull,when its root induced they all close up,see what I'm getting at?if its root induced and all the leaves close up you can saw until you saw the pot in half

it won't matter the plant has to rebuild from the roots and if it gets back to the trunk(the rot) its pretty rare for it to pull through(I have a waggie in this situation,I put some root hormone on the stalk,its been hanging on for a year and a half!tough little bugger)I should say that the spear pulled because the roots were severely damaged,so even with fungicide the candle is burning from both ends!tough way to go

As far as the 15F thing goes,there is a big difference between 15F and protected in a little(dry) bubble g/h and exposed with frost on it every night,my trachys have seen single digits,very briefly and are fine,with sun and outside and temps in the upper 20s it warms to the 60s in their protection,very similar to their native habitat I'm sure.The flap is fixed so no worries there,we have had half a dozen of the kind of fronts that blew it open the first time and no prob,it got down to -5F last night with 20-45mph winds and is only about 2F now! inside the g/houses its in the 60s(with the heat on and sun shining!)the styro containes are 60F and the big g/house is 35F in full sun and the heater on!amazing cold.We had about 2 weeks of no snow on the ground, this is an old pic but it looks about the same now-more snow tonight and colder air coming,yikes!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:16 am

Yes, Jim, I do understand that...I'll watch whether it's all the leaves, or just one.
Very informative explanation. thanks.
You'll have enough data to write a book on winter protection.

The sun sure benefits your enclosures, and makes all the difference versus cold damp days.
Now that we're milder (above freezing during the day, and slightly below overnight), we've got tons of fog blocking what would be sunny days.

I hope that Waggie pulls through for you.
After a year and a half fighting, he's a keeper.
thanks again.
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:55 pm

This waggie was potted up,then brought outside and planted and after a few months of doing nothing I pulled it up( tore it out of the ground) to throw away ,I decided to throw it back in the ground not expecting it to live and when I pulled it up yet again I noticed one tiny little root,so,I cleaned and roughed up the trunk a little,then added some root hormone and potted it back up,the next time I checked it,it was starting to root ,pretty amazing! its basically been dormant for a year and a half.I think a lot of time we don't see it until we pull them up to throw them away but the roots actually die back to the trunk and need to start all over again,I think thats why so many palms don't make it through the winter besides the cold -they should always be growing well in good weather,its amazing how long they can hold on,a palm with lots of stored up carbs, etc, can hold on for months and months when for all practical purposes,its dead,just living of its stored energy unless someone rescues it!
You can kind of see what it looked like last April above washy and today,in the second pic
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... res003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... res003.jpg" border="0" alt="W.filifera 1of 3"></a>

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... ort002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... ort002.jpg" border="0" alt="Waggie that lived"></a>

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:49 am

I'd probably (inadvertently) speed its demise by loading on epsom salts/B vitamins

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:29 pm

Thats a good idea

,the next time I water it I will use weak mir-acid and superthrive solution,I think it could use a little boost-

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:38 am

Hey Jim, careful.
Especially with the Miracid...
a little voice in my head warns "never fertilize, even lightly, a sick plant".

I have faith in epsom salts and Thrive/superthrive, but a little goes a long way.
Some people swear by B vitamins, others say it's garbage.

I have even more faith in repotting with new, better, soil mix.
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:42 pm

My feeling is not to disturb its new roots,I think superthrive is fine,I've never known it to hurt so why not ?I do feel like this plant needs a little boost though,its been living of its stored carbs for over a year so its got to be pretty depleted.I'm thinking of a weak mixture,I think as long as its not to strong it should not hurt.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:49 pm

Let us know how it does after treatment.
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:03 am

Man,I have not seen cold like we just had since x-mas eve 1983(almost 26yrs ago) in St.Louis when it hit -22F,the high temp that day was -11F. 40mph+ winds that day put the wind chill in the -60F range
We had 4 nights in a row below 0F,starting with -5F,-11F,-17F,-18F officially,its hard to comprehend temps like this unless you go outside,then you catch on real quick,or else!
The palms were well protected and only saw lows in the 20F to 40F range,there have been a few times where the temp has dropped into the 5F to 9F range but this does not seem to bother them as its only been an hour or two max.
On a positive note on the last two below zero nights mentioned above it was only -16F and -13F,thats because of my warm micro-climate

I probably won't try any coconut palms for a while

anttisepp · Post by **anttisepp** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:52 am

Let's count that it was the last cry of the Ice Age, Jim.

Usually after the cold winter happens very hot summer...

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:46 pm

Anttisepp,always good to hear from you,how are the palms?have you been able to look at them lately?
If its not the last cry from th ice age lets hope its one of the last anyway

We had a cold long winter last year and a average to cool wet summer,a warm summer would be great,or cool,I have palms,etc for either,so its all good

anttisepp · Post by **anttisepp** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:49 am

hardyjim wrote:Anttisepp,always good to hear from you,how are the palms?have you been able to look at them lately?
If its not the last cry from th ice age lets hope its one of the last anyway
We had a cold long winter last year and a average to cool wet summer,a warm summer would be great,or cool,I have palms,etc for either,so its all good

My palms are all still alive, because there werren't frost under the cover, usually about +1-5C.

BUT I don't sure that I have done everything to protect plants from mice. And I saw some evidences that there's may "happen the mouse". For my sorry I can't open the protection now (it's frozen outside) and it's better to wait until warm weather will come. Al palms are surrounded with thick cardboard, it's also play against rodents. Let's see...

I saw that you have bad losts this winter, it's a pity.

Antti

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:29 pm

I actually only lost 1 plant that was a cold hardy palm so far,(it was not very healthy to begin with)I also lost some cactus that were not A.parryi,instead I was sold A.americana,they are not anywhere near as cold hardy,they may have made it but I decided to remove them and replaced them with,A.havardiana and A.parryi.The other 2 plants that died ,I was trying as an experiment but turned out to not be cold hardy at all,everything else is hanging in there.I was able to get into the big G/house for the first time in several weeks yesterday and everything is doing great,I also watered everything for the first time in over 2 months.