winter protection, zone 6

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:27 am

Thought I would post a picture here of what I am doing to protect some of my inground palms. Following is a picture of 3 small palms covered in a mulch of leaves and covered by a plastic trash bag (no lights, no heat provided) . I did this last year and these three palms survived in ground after being planted in May of 2007. The palms are 2 sabal minors and a trach fortunei. These three were 2 year old seedlings when planted in May 2007. Not very big, I took a chance in 2007 planted them and was surprised all three made it over winter, zone 6. we had maybe 4 or 5 nights near 0F (-17C).

Now to this year, I sprayed each palm with Garden Safe Fungicide 3, which is a fungicide, miticide and insecticide all in one. I believe this to be a fungicidal miracle (I mean all 3 in one convenient spray). Let the spray dry several hours. Then I just mound shredded leaves on top. The pile is probaly 18" deep, threw a black plastic trash bag over the top and weight the ends down with wood. The location gets winter sun from about 9am until about 2pm. The fence behind protects from the north wind, although it is slatted.

I decided this year to bury a minimum/maximum thermometer inside the pile just to monitor the inside temps. Last night we had our coldest night of the season with temps at 20F (-6C) and the low inside the mass of leaves was 42F (5C). I was very surprised it was that warm under there. I will update as winter progresses.

Okanagan desert-palms · Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:45 pm

Kent looks like your protection method works good. Thanks for mentioning Garden safe fungicide 3. Ill have to see if I can get some here. Post some pics as winter progresses.

John

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:49 am

Kent,
Good luck with them. I have a few Sabals to plant next spring, looking forward to see how yours do!

Steve

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:22 pm

Steve I think you have more than a few sabals to plant next spring. I just saw a picture you took that must have had 50 seedlings in it.

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:57 pm

Well.. ok, maybe a few hundred to plant

Steve

tropicman · Post by **tropicman** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:26 am

Kent how much warmth is still in the ground?
Have you taken any soil temps yet?
I think when the ground gets colder we will begin to see lower temps inside our protection boxes.
I have quite a few washy filfierias in the ground with carpeting wrapped around the trunk and hard poly around the whole plant.
Don

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:54 am

funny you should ask Don because I was going to post some numbers here today. We have had a couple of cold nights in a row, below 20F (-6C), with no sun during the day to help warm up and last night it was 17F (-8C) in my backyard and it was 36F (2C) under the leaves. The coldest of the season so far. The thermometer is about 12" off the ground so I think the ground is even warmer. I have overwintered elephant ears this way the past 2 winters and they get huge during the summer months. I think the leaf mass and plastic trash bag cover will keep the ground from freezing (or close to it) . Disclaimer; Please note the celsius temps are approx. I do the best I can with the F to C conversions.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:13 am

Kent
...and with snow cover it'll be warmer yet under there.
Good plan for smaller plants.

Stock up on lumber and leaves for when they get larger.

Barb

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:35 pm

Barb - I believe"snow" is a four letter word. Usually any snow we get around here melts pretty fast, can't count on snow for insulation, but every little bit helps.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:01 pm

Hey oppalm,I am very happy that you are doing this! I really wanted to put a thermometer in with my(leaf cages) needle palms but I needed to do it before I could get a thermometer.I will be very curious to see how warm it stays under there,I think the ground will stay closer to 40F(at least) actually or the EE's would not have survived,so there is some indication of how warm it is,keep us informed,I am overwintering some canna austrailis this way,I let the soil dry out and put down some fungicide after cutting them back,then I put a plastic garbage lid(I cut slits in the lid first) over it for some air space,then I piled mulch about 18" over the top.I ordered 3 min/max thermometers but they turned out to be junk,so no measurement of that either but I guess I will know whats what,if they make it.Thanks for posting this,let us know how it goes.
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08008.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08008.jpg" border="0" alt="needle palm protection"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08007.jpg" border="0" alt="Leaf piles(needle palms)"></a>

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:15 am

Hey Jim. I am following your other threads and I beleive you may be the hardest working zone pusher I know. Please keep up the good work because it helps all of us.

I think my leaf massses with covers will keep the ground from freezing solid, but I think where I get all the benefits is keeping the snow, rain and ice off the plants during winter and they wont go through the freeze and thaw cycles that we experience in my zone.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:59 pm

Thanks Kent,I have learned alot from reading everybody elses post as well as yours,its amazing what can be done when we all put are heads together.It will be interesting to see what your minimum temps are outside and inside(protection) and I agree about keeping moisture off plants,I think if we can learn when to protect and how dry they need to be we can make it through the first few tricky years,my approach has always been to see how much true winter weather they can take but about half way through I realized that the best success will come from really protecting them at first until they are well established,the one experiment I am most interested in is,what am I going to see when I remove protection from the needle palms as this is something I would like to try on all my sabals as well-good luck

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:11 am

we've had some very cold temps the last 4-5 days , highs in the low 20's F (mostly no sunshine) and lows from 5-10 F. Under the leaf tent the temp shows 38F on Thurs Dec 18, 2008. I am very surprised it has stayed that warm considering the lows we have had.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:58 am

Sounds like 30F+ worth of protection! I would imagine that my leaf cages lose a little more as the tops of the needle palms are 30" to the top,still I would guess my needle palms are safe down to -20F(outside temp)hopefully we won't see those kind of temps but anytime we have snow cover like we do now it can be 10F colder than if we did not.Thanks for posting!,I will keep checking back.

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:56 am

I promise not to provide daily updates. Our temps the last 24 hours were pretty much 32-34F (no sunshine) , and this morning my leaf hut showed 42F , which is actually up 4 degrees from yesterday morning. The ground is obviously still radiating some heat under the mulch and plastic.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:45 am

The real test will be when temps drop below 0F and stay below 0F during the day,then it will be interesting to see how warm it stays under there,thanks for the info.We are set to see our first sub-zero temps this weekend.

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:48 pm

I don't care what people say about the Hystrix. I have a Sabal Minor planted on the South side of the house that made it thru last Winter with no, and I mean NO protection what so ever in Topeka, Kansas. It put out one leaf this Summer, but hey, it didn't die!!!
So I don't care what they say, Minors are the hardiest tree out there, NOT the Hystrix.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:52 pm

I can't say one way or another,my needles showed no damage from 12F but I am overprotecting because although they are 7g size almost all the spears had pulled as soon as they got here.My sabals are much smaller than the needles so not a fair comparison but they do grow much faster than the needles and handled the early cold just as well and I am sure will outgrow the needles next year,very impressive that your sabals survived unprotected!they do seem to be bomb proof,esp when you factor in spear pull on needles - sabals have more protected growth bud.I will not really test the hardiness of either untill I get them established

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:23 am

new temperature report just in. we had 2 days of temps near20F (-6C) and nightime lows around 4F (-15C) and the leaf pile hit a low of 27F (-3C). Last night the low was 32F (0C) and the leaf pile was at 37F (3C) this morning. Somehow it generates heat and it must be the decomposition of grass and leaves along with the temperature of the ground.

Just so you know.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:24 am

Yea,I think the ground warmth is a big factor,also there must be a lag effect between outside cold and inside?have you noticed that at all?

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:55 pm

January 10, 2009 update. I trust everyone had a nice new years.

We've had very moderate temps over the last few weeks, highs in the 30's 40 and 50 's F (thats -1, 4 and 10 C) and nothing lower than 20F (-6C) at night. My leaf pile is in the 40's (4C). I am amazed at how warm the pile is staying. If I get kicked out of my house, I will take up residence in the leaf pile out back (know what I mean).

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:38 am

Yup,I can send you some more leaves if you get cold

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:15 pm

here it is the end of Jan 2009, and my pile of covered leaves has not gone below 30F in weeks. The pile heats up during the day into the 40's F and then drops to the early 30's F each night. It just seems weird that the temps in the pile have become predictable. OK I'm sick of winter now. where is spring?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:33 pm

Almost there,as far as I'm concerned Feb is the last winter month and I do think we will pull out of winter much faster than last year!
I really wish I had a thermometer in my leaf piles that cover my two needle palms,it would have been interesting to see what the temp was in there when we hit -16F

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:00 pm

just a follow up note , the temps in the pile continue to stay in the 40's during the day and high 30's at night, thats farenheit.
2 weeks ago the temps were into the 60's and I uncovered the pile, dug down to the palms and they look great, nice and green. I am really surprised the temps stay so high under the pile and don't expect any problems getting these through winter.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:51 am

Nice to read these results, guys.

I've got a cheapo thermometer with a 5-foot long cord to a remote reader, if you can call 5 feet remote

Since I'm going to plant out my 32 yr old Trachy this year, I wonder (1) how reliable are these cheap little thermometers? and (2) is there a brand/type with a longer cord, say 10 or 12 feet?

Barb

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:10 pm

Hey Barb - my thermometer(s) is wireless, got it at Walmart for like $10. I believe it to be very accurate. I have 4 thermometers inside and outside my house. My wife thinks (knows) I am nuts. I just enjoy knowing the temperature everywhere.

Don't know anything about thermometers with cords. I think pretty much everything is wireless these days.

Question for Barb- what made you decide to plant your old Trachy outside this year? Far be it from me to tell you how to run your palm life but why not plant a different trachy outside this year and learn the proper outdoor wintering techniques before planting the big girl outside? Just a question.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:48 pm

Putt'n er out to pasture e'Barb

I agree the thermos do seem to be pretty accurate,I don't buy any of the ones that all read different temps in the same place on the shelf

The one problem you can have with wireless is that they are all on the same signal sometimes if you buy the same type.thats one situation where the wire ones are better.I wish somebody made one with 10 sensors and one main unit,theres got to be one somewhere.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:14 pm

out to pasture? Oh...the palm

First a pic of my super duper 3-foot long temp thingy (drumroll...)

useless piece of crap 'coz the cord's not long enough.

Then I've got my super duper new (cordless) Bios weather station.

I love all this "techie" stuff around...even thinking of a webcam just to make sure the palms don't walk away next year.
My husband thinks I'm nuts "with all these gadgets".
Hey, knowing I'm going to freeze my arse off during a walk is good to know before I head out.

Kent...it's not just that I'm tired of looking after the Big Girl in her garbage can pot, but I think I found a spot on the east side of the house where heat might be somehow leaking from the basement woodstove.
This pic is from inside looking at the area where I want to plant the palm.

I noticed that any snow that lands there melts within a day or two, yet surrounding snow just keeps piling up deeper and deeper. So...instead of investigating the basement concrete walls for a leak, I'll just plant the Big Girl here (with winter protection, and a heater in case I'm dead wrong about the leak).

I wish somebody made one with 10 sensors and one main unit,theres got to be one somewhere.

the closest thing might be an EKG (from the hospital)

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:08 pm

First a pic of my super duper 3-foot long temp thingy (drumroll...)
You'll just have to move the house closer to the palms

I know you can find some with 6-10ft cords thats what I have.
If I had remote sensors for all my palms they would be all crossed up,I have had to settle for one in one of the three washy styro dealeos,2 with cords to represent the other type of styro covers and just plain old thermometers for the other mini g/houses,the big g/house also has a remote thermometer,I keep daily records for 5 of them

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:58 pm

I'm going thermometer shopping this weekend

Yup, I bet having 5 or 6 remote thermometers within close proximity would give you wonky readings here and there.
And then you'd have to be outdoors even more than now just to check on them, so what's that worth?!

what made you decide to plant your old Trachy outside this year? Far be it from me to tell you how to run your palm life but why not plant a different trachy outside this year and learn the proper outdoor wintering techniques before planting the big girl outside? Just a question.

Sorry, Kent, I forgot to answer your question:
I had been waiting for global warming, but since California and all things north of that on the West Coast are moving NORTH, there's no better time than now.
I guess an analogy would be: What/for whom am I saving the good dishes for?

At 32, the Big Girl is gettin on; time to see what she can finally do outdoors (if properly protected in winter).

I've learned so much from your winter protection pictures and advice on this forum that I'm willing to risk starting with the Big Girl. Might be a plus, too, because of her age?
And I'm confident you folks will assist in advice for winter protection.

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 am

three things ;

1. first of all Barb it appears your thermomemter might be broken , its reading in celsius.

just kidding.
b. There has been enough documented winter protection methods posted over the last couple of years that I feel confident that you (Barb) can overwinter your Trachy just fine.
c. I'd offer to help dig the hole but you are a long way away from me and I believe you have a tractor that could do a better job than me anyway.

Good luck.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:02 am

When I buy thermometers I try and find the ones that all agree on the temp

The reason I have so many is that I'm trying 5 different kinds of protection with 18 somewhat different covers so,I neede to know what the differences between them are so I get the general idea if they are all within proper temp range,now that I have oserved them all for a while I have a good idea what the temp is in each one without necessarily looking at all of them but I do anyway

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:57 am

Kent, I'm still not used to Celsius...slow process in an old brain.

Temps in C and F are my preference.

I agree with you on the winter protection methods posted here.
I would never think of trying it without having seen everybody's pictures.
Good stuff.
That--and the "mystery warm spot" in the ground beside the house--assured me it's possible here.

I'm leaning toward a leaf cage which probably means I could only use plumber's tape or Christmas lights around the palm tree's base. But plumber's tape can short out.
There wouldn't be any room to place a ceramic heater inside, or even an outdoor spotlight.
A heater or outdoor spotlight might be a fire risk too (dry leaves)

Are pricier thermometers generally better than the cheap ones?
Barb

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:06 am

Barb, the mini christmas lights will probably be your best bet to wrap your palm. You have plenty of time to think and rethink and worry.

I have had excellent luck with the cheap wireless thermometers. I paid about $10 each for my 4 thermometers and trust their accuracy. I have had them for 3 years and just change the batteries every fall when they go to work. I also have an Oregon Scientific thermometer and spy satellite tracker (about $100). Works great.

I made up the part about the spy satellite tracker.

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:12 am

Barb, the mini christmas lights will probably be your best bet to wrap your palm. You have plenty of time to think and rethink and worry.

I have had excellent luck with the cheap wireless thermometers. I paid about $10 each for my 4 thermometers and trust their accuracy. I have had them for 3 years and just change the batteries every fall when they go to work. I also have an Oregon Scientific thermometer and spy satellite tracker (about $100). Works great.

I made up the part about the spy satellite tracker.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 am

Kent,
I figured the Christmas lights might be the best best, too.

Good to know that the relatively cheap thermometers work as well as the pricey ones.

spy satellite tracker

You're just tracking that rainbow

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:13 pm

You guys make me laugh,thanks.
Barb the cool thing about protection is,the more insulation the less heat needed,my washys have house insulation and styrofoam lids and only 3 c-7 bulbs raise the temp at least 30F,another nice thing about x-mas lights,(o.k. a couple)is that they are cheap easy to put where you want,pretty much waterproof although I wouldn't try them under water and you can always unscrew a few if its to hot and the other way round

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:38 pm

although I wouldn't try them under water

yup, I remember how warm my "practise protection" for the Y. rostrata got.
But it was only early October.
He just about fried during only one night.

Felt I'd have a heck of a time adjusting the temps, so I chickened out and repotted it.

Jim, you make a good point about quality/thickness of insulation.
So an R-500 value wouldn't need bulbs at all

Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:45 pm

I may have to move to a spot 6' underground if I get another utility bill like the last 2,I think it stays 55F or so under there,or maybe oppalm has some extra space under his leaf pile

PalmsNorth.com

winter protection, zone 6

winter protection, zone 6

Ground warmth