Bismarckia nobilis ~ Fresh Seed = Fast Germination

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:45 pm

I thought this was interesting, The last batch I did took about 3-4 months to germinate.

on 9-10-07 received some fresh seed that had just been cleaned.

After a heated soak for two days they were put in the propagator at 90* - 100*

This is what I found today, 9-17-07

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:54 pm

you are the man with the golden germination touch. nicely done. Love the Bismarckia.

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:43 pm

This is a good example of the difference fresh seed can make.
( and why germination experiences can vary so widely )

90*/32C to 100*/38C does seem like the ideal temp for these.

oppalm · Post by **oppalm** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:17 am

My experience has been that the warmer temps - between 90-95F - result in better and quicker germination of almost all species. I know thats a general statement, but seems you can't go wrong with warmer temps for germination. I ma getting ready to paly the germination game for the next few months. Fun just to watch the seedlings grow when its cold outside.

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:38 pm

Hey Steve, you might check some of those Vegas seeds I sent. I just found one that has popped!!

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:04 pm

Good Deal

I'll take a good look at them tomorrow, Have you had any luck with the Arenga seed yet?

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:48 am

Not the Arenga yet, but I did pot up a bunch of those Phsosperma or what ever. They seem to be doing ok.
Also, have actually popped two Taitungensis seeds which doesn't sound like much, but for me, THATS GREAT!!!

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:09 am

Congrats on the Taitungensis seed!

The Arengas I've germinated in the past have taken 2-3 months, nothing yet on the others but they'll catch up

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:49 pm

Big enough now to pot up.

Need at least 12" containers to accommodate initial root development,I make mine from 6" PVC split in half and then taped together, this makes it a lot easier to tranplant later on.

A little larger one

( 2 years old this Summer)

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:25 pm

I saw that conduit idea last year when I came out and I tried it and it worked like a champ. Not sure why I stopped other than it was a pain for me to cut it. However now at work, we got some "split duct conduit" and thats how it comes from the manufacturer. You just snap it shut and "tie wrap" it.
So I think I will try it again later with some stuff.

Bgreen · Post by **Bgreen** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:53 am

That is a great idea!
Congratulations on the seeds too, that was quick

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:48 am

Benjamin,
Thanks! These suprised me too, I wasn't expecting to see anything until next March.

With most of my Palms in containers, the ones with deep roots can present some problems. Not having room for a bunch of 20 gallon containers, I have been lifting these a bit when potting up. ( only at the seedling stage )

As an experiment, this one was lifted 6" ( notice the old fronds, they were at the previous soil level)
This was done this past Spring and the Palm seems to have adjusted with no ill effects

I've seen photos of these growing in smaller containers, is anyone here doing that? and how is it working out?

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:01 am

With the lifting thing...
I took a bunch of my CIDP & Dachy seedlings that I noticed I was getting some problem with the 2nd leaf was almost rotting at one tiny place cause ing the leaf to fall over (not off) and then start growing normal. So there would be one spot in the leaf where it would be brown and would bend over. After that spot, they would go back to normal.
What I did was repotted them, lifting them up to where the spot where the seed wrapped around the "trunk" and carefully cut the seed off.
What I have noticed is booming growth (caused by the upsizing of the pot) and no more browning. I think they were planted too deep and the water would set in there where the seed met the 'trunk" and molded.
I will take a pic of this later today maybe.

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:05 pm

Here is a pic of the problem I spoke of in the above post. The leaf stopped growing and formed a fold in the leaf where the leaf basically died from that point up, but lived going up to that point. The point was under ground and I think is from rotting. But after I cut the bad piece off, the leaf then continued to grow and put out other perfectly normal leafs. This pic is of just one of many many many things this happened to. I then cut the seed and the chord that attached the seed and peeled it off the tree and re potted. Since then, they have grown a bunch.

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:36 pm

Glad they recovered, I would bet that yours will be 4X the size it is now by the end of next Summer

Link is to an illustration which shows ideal planting height for seedlings,
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EDISImagePage? ... 1&credits=

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:28 am

Thanks for that picture. I will start to use that method.

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:02 pm

Checked them again today, three more have germinated.
That makes for 5 out of 7 so far

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:13 am

And a couple just breaking the surface,

I like the color on this one

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:09 pm

Just posting to show the growth rate. These are all starting on their second leaf.

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:32 am

A nice thing about using the PVC pipe and lots of Perlite, when it is time to pot up, just separate both halves and the soil falls away. Ready to pot up with little root disturbance

Deep roots, these always seem healthier and faster growing when given space.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:01 am

Steve
How the

did I miss this entire posting?

Wonderful to see Bismarckia through the critical early stages.
Thanks for catching the entire process.
Nice pics of what must be--for a lot of people--their favorite palm.

The growth rate at Dec31 was amazing!
Did you use a band saw to cut that PVC pipe?
(Can't imagine doing it with a hand saw -- ouch)

Nice to see the root development.
The books all say that the deeper the soil, the better the palm will grow after transplanting.
I've seen lifting recommended, some even lift 6 or more inches, and prop it up so it doesn't fall over!

Steve your photo illustrations are always superb, and this is your BEST!
I'm off to the basement to kick my seeds against the wall...maybe that'll crack 'em

Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:49 am

Thanks Barb!
Used a jig saw with a wood blade for the PVC. It does cut pretty easily, then just tape or tie the halves together. The holes drilled along the sides seemed to help too ( Last year I used solid pieces and the mix always stayed a bit damp )

I usually lift mine about 4" - 6" If nothing else, just to get them to fit into a 5 gallon container

Good Luck with your seeds! If they were in storage for a while it might take up to 6 months, so don't give up on them!

Steve

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:49 am

Steve, I MIGHT be able to ummmm, have a piece of split pipe fall off my trunk the next time I go to Salina if you want some. That way you don't have to cut it, thats how it comes, then you just snap it together and keep it closed with tie wraps.
Just let me know.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:24 pm

Steve,
Wonder how long it takes for the seed to fall off, or do you cut it off in a few months?
Heavy for a little frond to hold up

Wes,
I have never seen only ONE pipe fall off a truck...
generally 8 to 10 seem to go at once...Strange

Barb

Wes North Van · Post by **Wes North Van** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:43 pm

Where did you get your seed from?

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:05 pm

The seeds are just about spent at this point, They get lighter as they are depleted. ( I usually find something to prop them up with )

These were from the CFPACS Seed Bank : http://www.plantapalm.com/centralfl/default.asp

Steve

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:16 pm

This one is cut open to show the internal seed structure, ( this one proved itself to be non viable )

A little closer view, a viable embryo would be located in the bottom center, that is also the point the radicle would emerge.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:25 pm

Great pics and info.
It went into a 5 GALLON pot?

This long root structure, is it a true tap root, like say, an oak tree?

Super to see the inside of that seed.
Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:56 pm

Barb, Not a tap root as with a Dicot, technically, I believe that would the first Adventitious root with lateral branching

At this stage of development, if that root is damaged, it can be fatal to the palm.

Steve

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:19 am

This is one going on it's third season from seed........

Just noticed the start of palmate leaves

Steve

Kansas · Post by **Kansas** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:24 am

OH MY GOD THAT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:32 pm

Ya, there's nothing like a B.nobilis to race my heart!

Steve, the Bizzie seed you cut in half and you said it wasn't viable...where the radicle should come out.
I don't know what they're supposed to look like, but here's mine cut open after 4+ months next to the wood stove.

http://www.palmsnorth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1631

Besides yours being a much better picture, I think the inside of your seed looks so firm and healthy, whereas mine
looks mostly pulpy and only fleshy in some parts. So what is it about yours that tells you it's not viable?

I'm not in the habit of cutting seeds open so this is a tad confusing.
Thanks.
Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:53 pm

Barb,
The Cotyledonary petiole would emerge from the bottom of the seed where the wall is thinnest, ( referring to the photos I posted), an embryo would also be located in this position. The majority of the seed is stored food, which is generally sufficient to the first leaf stage.

One test that can determine if a seed is viable or not, is to cut it in half and soak it in a solution of triphenyl tetrazolium chloride. A viable embryo will take on a red stain.

Some more info on this procedure: http://www.frsa.org/SAfacts/SAFTZ.html

I've never had occasion to use this procedure myself. With the one I cut open, it ended up being the only one out of the lot that never germinated, and was constantly growing mold no matter how well cleaned. ( that generally is a good indication things are not well

Steve

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:33 am

Steve
thanks for the interesting info.
So (again looking at my seed cut open on the recently posted link), do you think its interior shape indicates viability?
I don't have any TTC.
Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:19 am

Barb,
I don't see anything in yours that would suggest a problem, ( the endosperm seems to be filling the cavity, no discoloration present, etc)

Your seeds should have a good chance of germinating still, if you can get them somewhere with around a 90* - 100*F temp it will speed up the process. Have you thought about picking up a heat mat with a thermostatic control ? It would be of help with the Cycad seeds you are expecting.

Farmtek carries the mats and thermostats, ( lots of other places do too)

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/Pr ... ctId=39510

Steve

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:17 am

That's encouraging, Steve.
Thanks for taking a look.

Yes you're right...I've got to pick up a heat mat, especially now that it's warming up
and the woodstove will soon be off for good.

Thanks for the link.
Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:51 pm

Barb,
Here is one that is almost spent, you can see how the endosperm depletes, and where the cotylendon emerges.
( one of my cats chewed this one off a while ago, but the Palm is fine

Steve

Okanagan desert-palms · Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:54 pm

Steve great work on those bismarkias. Your right they need bottom heat for germination. I put them on a heat mat, used perlite in a tupperware container with a timer 16 hrs on 8 off. The two batches of seeds four months apart both germinated with 2 weeks 90%. It took 2 months for the first sprout. Maybe the soil needed to be warmer for it to sprout faster. I think the next time I`ll use longer pots like you did.

John

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:31 pm

Thanks Steve,
Took a while, but I understand it now.
Barb

Knnn · Post by **Knnn** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:41 am

John, Thanks! The taped together PVC pipe works out great when it is time to pot up, I didn't lose any out of this batch, but most did sulk for about a month ( I should have waited for warmer weather)

Barb, Had no idea what was going on inside the seed until I cut open a couple to take a look myself

Steve

PalmsNorth.com

Bismarckia nobilis ~ Fresh Seed = Fast Germination

Bismarckia nobilis ~ Fresh Seed = Fast Germination

Thanks!

12-31-2007

Bizzie