Trachy Takil, what's the story?

[Cali-wanna-b]

I don't know about anyone else, but the history and mystery surrounding Takils has my head spinning. I see many growers offering 1-2 gal takils for sale. I have one myself that I bought over a year ago. Then I read that there are no true takils in circulation yet. So apparantly I do not have a takil.........What gives?!?!?!? Does anyone know the true story behind Trachy takils? Does anyone know where certified takil seeds or plants can be purchased?

Sincerely,

[turtile]

What was labeled Takil is now known as Trachycarpus Fortunei "Nanital" after DNA tests found that is was a Fortunei. They all have the SHF (Slope Heave Frost) trait and the leaves are more round and thick.

Now there are reports that the real Takil have been found and are available for sale but as far as I know there has been no DNA tests done to prove it.

Links to where the true Takil are said to come from:
http://www.gardenpalms.com/(S(jz5tcs45wuyhni4532s1lg45))/EN/articles/Top%20trachycarpus.aspx
http://www.europalms.be/pictures/trachy ... index.html

[Paul Ont]

Ugh! Don't get me started on the "DNA tests" done on the Trachycarpus genus... It's all very confusing and probably not as well done as it could have been (IMHO and in my discussions on the subject with others in field)... The Trachyacrpus species show suprisingly low diversity in their genetic code. The bulk of the thesis on the genus was done using a technique commonly used to detect polymorphisms within a species (i.e. on different individuals within the same species). All I'm saying is that it could have been clearer...

But, yes, what you have is almost certainly Trachycarpus fortunei 'nainital'. The problem is that now we have 90% of nurseries selling nainital palms as takil, and for whatever reason they are not getting the message. Furthermore, until about a week before the release of the 'true takil' (phase 3) seeds, places like EUROPALMS (who had/have the true takil seeds) were selling nainial as takil... Very confusing...

So, what we do know is that a palm at the boat club in nainital assumed to be a takil (but was fortunei) supplied all of the seeds for the palms currently known as takil (i.e. nainital). What we also know is that the 'true takil' seeds are coming from the palms that are labelled 'takil Indien Gruppe' in the thesis on the Trachycarpus. These are the palms that Spaner and Gibbons published about in 1995 (or whenever) and are supposed to the the same as the true takil described by Beccari all those years ago (and the palms that Major Madden said were growing in snow all winter). That is, unless the new seed collector is again trying to make a quick buck rather then assuring the authenticity of the palms... I can tell you, however, that the seeds do look quite different from fortunei seeds.
And, lastly, the thesis on the Trachycarpus also differentiates between the Takils in India (Indien gruppe) and those growing in the garden of Beccari and in the Rome Botanical Garden... What does this mean? I have no idea, but I will leave it to the experts to figure out!

Hope that doesn't just confuse you!
Paul

[lucky1]

One day a very simple solution will be discovered...
probably that they hybridize freely with TWO or THREE others...
But it will take DNA to convince people.
Or process of elimination...use mitochondrial DNA to see which is the momma all the way back to grand grand mommas.

Craig, you can get seeds from my Naini Tal (grower=Barrie) in a few years.
The white stuff is hail, not perlite.
Barb

[Cali-wanna-b]

After seeing Barb's pic, I have a 'nainital'. Mine looks exactly the same. 'Nainital' without a doubt have a different growth habit than the regular Trachys I have. The 'nainital' also seems to like somewhat dryier conditions than a regular trachy. Mine suffered some over watering damage last winter, while my regular Trachys did not under the same conditions. I guess that would result from them growing on mostly rocky out-croppings.

[lucky1]

Craig, we're going to take your watering can away.

growing on mostly rocky out-croppings.

Habitat conditions are a good place to start when determining a plant's preference.
Barb

[Cali-wanna-b]

Here is my little Nani.


Barb, you can take my watering can away when you can pry it from my duct taped hands!!!

[lucky1]

Craig,
Yours sure looks like my Naini, if only 'coz they're both leaning
Someone else will find other clues.

You don't appear to be overwatering the seedlings in background.
Barb

[Cali-wanna-b]

Barb

I have learned that keeping some types of seedlings in smaller pots is the way to go until they develop a good root system. I use to plant them up into 1 gal. as soon as they got a few strap leaves and lost a lot of them because of.......well you know. Some of the types like washingtonia, pheonix and brahea I still pot up quick because they have some crazy deep root systems.

Craig

[lucky1]

Craig,

lot of them because of.......well you know

...maybe use that philosphy with all your plants.
One palm/cycad website said it this way: cool and dry; or hot and wet.

they have some crazy deep root systems.

Did you see Todd's super idea?...use 2L pop bottles, cut off at the "shoulder", drill drainage holes.
They're narrow and deep, and are good for long root systems while plant is still too young to put into a big pot.
Barb

BTW does anyone else's Nainital appear crooked in the pot like those two?
Barb

[Barrie]

Barb ... all of the roughly 30 'Nainital' I have remaining are growing obliquely. There may have been one in the lot that didn't. It's not unique to "Nainital', as regular Trachycarpus fortunei will periodically grow at an oblique angle. This characteristic is lost once the palm forms a mature trunk and is able to bulk up.

Cheers, Barrie.

[Paul Ont]

Not sure if you all have read the work of John in Colorado (z. 5b). He's been studying hardy palms for quite a while now. A few of his findings are that palms with the SFH (i.e. leaning trunk) is associated with palms that are a few degrees more hardy then regular fortunei... Another interesting finding is that wagnerianus, so far, looks like it might be even hardier then fortunei (even hardier then the nainital or fortunei with the SFH trait, somewhere in the neighbourhood of -21C)...
Just thought I'd throw that in there. Oh, and I recall someone showing a picture of a wagnerianus with the leaning trunk... You've got to think (hope) that a palm with that trait would be even hardier
If I was to speculate as to why wagnerianus would be hardier... Perhaps it is a more northern form of fortunei and the smaller more compact growth is an adaptation to snow and cold??? Any other ideas??

[Cali-wanna-b]

Barb

Yes I have seen Todd's super idea. I already invested in some tree deep pots from Stuewe and Sons that I keep in milk crates. I can put 9 per crate and it makes moving them around easy. Although the soda bottles would be easier on the wallet.

Paul

Yes I have read John's work. Very impressive IMO. I agree with your opinion of the waggies. Most dwarfs varieties, not only palms, seem to be more hardy than their true forms. IMO, we are seeing Mother nature at her best.

Craig

[Barrie]

I have a Trachycarpus wagnerianus that is very weak. It gets frost and snow damage at about -7c or -8c (19f to 17.5f) so luckily it's not damaged too often.

I don't know if you can explain oblique trunks as hardier since from the same seed lot and parent tree, you'll get straight and oblique forming trunks with fortunei.

Cheers, Barrie.

[lucky1]

Barrie, I like the unique look, but thought I had to straighten it when potting up. Or so I thought. Months later, it's leaning again. Cool! Have you considered trying Superthrive for your weak Waggie...wouldn't hurt. Had I know you had 30, I would've ordered a couple more!

Paul, haven't read John's work...wonder if he'd join us here.
Interesting theories abound.
I'll never again reject a palm for its crookedness.

Craig, good for you for getting tree pots. Less soil volume to overwater.

Barb

[Barrie]

Barb ... in all fairness, this "waggie" was a transplant back when I moved to Vancouver Island 6 and a half years ago. It's suseptablity may be in part due to that and soil conditions. Adding fertilizer won't change the hardiness only better prepare it for dormancy.

Cheers. Barrie.

[lucky1]

K (of N P K) is Potassium, as everybody knows.
Potassium is needed to get plants through harsh winter conditions.
Golf courses apply Potassium to greens over several applications beginning in Fall.
Barb

[turtile]

Another interesting finding is that wagnerianus, so far, looks like it might be even hardier then fortunei (even hardier then the nainital or fortunei with the SFH trait, somewhere in the neighbourhood of -21C)...
Just thought I'd throw that in there. Oh, and I recall someone showing a picture of a wagnerianus with the leaning trunk... You've got to think (hope) that a palm with that trait would be even hardier
If I was to speculate as to why wagnerianus would be hardier... Perhaps it is a more northern form of fortunei and the smaller more compact growth is an adaptation to snow and cold??? Any other ideas??

I have a Wagnerianus with the trait but it isn't as significant as my nanital.

[Paul Ont]

Barrie,
I too have seen T. wagnerianus killed at around 20f... Must be trees that are genetically weak or something, as individuals can clearly survive (in most cases) temperatures similar to, or colder then, fortunei I wonder if the same is true for 'regular' fortunei (i.e. individual palms that are killed at much higher temeratures)?

Here is a link to Dr. John's website, interesting that the nainitals outperformed needle palms and now he is seeing T. wagnerianus outperform nainital! The thing to keep in mind, though, is that his freezes are much shorter then ours here in Ontario...

http://hometown.aol.com/fitzroya/myhome ... oking.html

Paul

[chumleycycads.com]

I bought 30 1 gal. size from a man in Calif. who has a big nursery in Columbia. I don't know how authentic they are ,.
but they look good. This man is a well known horticulturist and quite knowledgeable. Robert Chumley

[Islander]

I have three "takil" specimens from different sources and they grow obliquely. One "takil" is at 5 gal size. T. wagnerianus is a favorite because it stays a deeper green after winter. T. fortunei palms often have yellow on the lower fronds by the first half of spring. All my wagnerianus palms are of a darker green than the T. fortunei palms. Even the hybrids handed to me by a local palm society member. I have two wagnerianus germination trays. The first tray is from Victoria-area palms and the second from four US of A palms (from two different states). One palm stateside was so rigid and dark green that I have decided to cultivate its "strain" since it had been pollinated from a tree of the same batch.

[nucci60]

speaking of "takil", what ever happened to Trachycarpus Tesan? That was going to be another wonder trachy!

[Cali-wanna-b]

speaking of "takil", what ever happened to Trachycarpus Tesan? That was going to be another wonder trachy!

Nucci, you wouldn't be.....................would ya?

I have one. Not much difference between the 'Tesan' and the 'Bulgaria'. They seem to grow a little slower than a "regular" Trachy.

[Paul Ont]

IMHO 'tesan' is just a form made up to make a profit...

Any palm that you have labelled as 'takil' and is larger then a single leaf is certainly T. fortunei 'nainital'... We all got hosed on this one I'm afraid... The sad thing is that now we have 90% of the people who have shelled out the money for 'takil' (i.e. 'nainital') still calling it that. I don't think the confusion will ever disappear completely.

[Paul Ont]

IMHO 'tesan' is just a form made up to make a profit...

Any palm that you have labelled as 'takil' and is larger then a single leaf is certainly T. fortunei 'nainital'... We all got hosed on this one I'm afraid... The sad thing is that now we have 90% of the people who have shelled out the money for 'takil' (i.e. 'nainital') still calling it that. I don't think the confusion will ever disappear completely.