Received Trachycarpus takil (true takil) seeds from Europalm

[Paul Ont]

Here is a pic of the Trachycarpus takil (true form) seeds, to the left are a seed of T. fortunei and T nanitial (aka takil, the one most of us have labelled as takil... confused yet?) What do you think? The true takil seeds are smaller (and less robust) then fortunei or nanital, but not as small as T. princeps seeds!
link to Full size image:
http://image50.webshots.com/650/2/99/31 ... PPW_fs.jpg

And finally, a picture of the unusual cross between Y. elata (3rd year from seed) and a friendly rabbit:


Cheers!
Paul

[macario]

I hope you did get what you wanted. That one true takil that you see pictures of in books in rome was supposed to not be as cold hardy as T. Fortunei in any form. There were other T. takils that were supposed to be planted around the same time as the Takil in rome. Most of the Takils planted north of rome all died. The one in rome lived because rome is a warm place. When it comes down to it T. Fortunei in its many adapted variations is the most cold hardy of the trunking Trachycarpus family. This is mostly from what I read in some journal somewhere.

[Paul Ont]

I hope you did get what you wanted. That one true takil that you see pictures of in books in rome was supposed to not be as cold hardy as T. Fortunei in any form. There were other T. takils that were supposed to be planted around the same time as the Takil in rome. Most of the Takils planted north of rome all died. The one in rome lived because rome is a warm place. When it comes down to it T. Fortunei in its many adapted variations is the most cold hardy of the trunking Trachycarpus family. This is mostly from what I read in some journal somewhere.

Okay, here we go... First off, let me say that I think we should let the plants do the talking. If they survive the cold, great that's what we want, if not., oh well, at least we tried and had fun doing it! The Trachycarpus issue is still a major debate among the hardcore trachyholics, and actually people can get very sore. Please don't read anymore of my rambligs if you're not interested, or if you do and can clarify some issues for me, please do! I do know about phylogenetics, but am not an expert on Trachycarpus. I am merely a palm fanatic writing on a subject that I am passionate about!

Here is what I know: First, what was thought to be T. takil was sold in the USA turned out to actually be T. wagnerianus. Next, this was figured out, and we started growing 'true takil', which turned out to be T. nanitial, which is probably a close relative of T. fortunei (though it obviously shows great deviation from fortunei, as does another close relative, wagnerianus...). This mistake was caused by someone not checking the seed supply properly (you may have heard about the phony T. princeps seeds from a few years ago... same sort of thing)... Okay, so now this mess has been figured out. And Europalms is selling seeds for T. takil 'true takil', which is a palm most closely related to T. oreophilius and T. 'Manipur' (ukhrulense).

To add a final twist to this, a German thesis using DNA sequence data (ITS sequence as well as restriction fagment analysis) of the Trachycarpus genus was written a couple years ago. There were some very interesting, to me anyway, outcomes from this work. Trachycarpus princeps seems to be composed of 2 distinct species, one related to fortunei, geinisectus, and wagnerianus; the other mot closely related to T. nanus. Trachycarpus takil (called 'Indian form') allies closely with T. ukhrulense (Manipur), and T. oreophilus. Lastly, in a couple analyses in the appendix of this thesis a comparison between the Rome takils and those from India are made, and the two groups of plams appear to be more closely related to other members of the genus then to each other... Now, I don't know whether that means they actually represent distinct species (for simplicities sake I hope not) I just thought that was interesting.

I could also go into the debate about the climate where the 'Indian' takils are found, but I will just say that it gets cold (it is at 8000ft on a north facing slope! For comparison, the city of Nanitial, at a slightly lower elevation and with a moderating lake has hit temperatures below -5C in recent memory). Will it prove harier then fortunei? Probably not. But I'm going to try to be sure!

Cheers,
Paul

[Alchris]

That must have been one tough or hungry rabbit. Our neighborhood rabbit tried my Yucca flacida earlier this winter and walked away without eating any leaves.

I wish you success in germinating the seed.

Allen

[DesertZone]

Good info Paul

Macario, good info

[lucky1]

Hi Paul, welcome to the site.

Interesting stuff.
You might be interested in a previous discussion on this--albeit not to the DNA level--
and if Barrie's around (hallooooooo! Barrie!) I'm sure he'll jump in.

This was the only discussion I could find (of several):
http://www.palmsnorth.com/forum/viewtop ... tal+trachy

Every time I hear about that mountain in Nainital, it's grown another thousand feet

For those who are willing to pay the premium, DNA will one day allow palm fanatics to purchase viable seed that is, say, 1/4 Trachycarpus takil, and 3/4 "Survived Vancouver's Worst Winters Trachy."

Seeds could have a pedigree, like a Purebred Dog
Barb

[oppalm]

this is one of the reasons I have a hard time paying big money for seeds or plants. There are lots of variables and germination issues with most seeds, plus when buying seeds, you really have no idea of what you are getting and you are at the mercy of the seed merchants and the gatherers.

[Paul Ont]

I thought that I read in the originial paper that the takil palms grew between 8000-8500 ft on the north facing slopes? Am I mistaken?
I agree about palm seed. Let me just say it's no fun when you spend the money to get some expensive seeds and nothing comes of it... Neither is it fun when you spend big bucks for palms which aren't what they claim to be (thank you very much whoever was responsible for collecting the T. nanital seed!)...
I'd like to see another study of the Trachycarpus using some rapidly evolving genes as opposed to AFLP markers... But that's just my personal opinion!

Thanks for the welcome! Hopefully I'll be a useful contributor!

[lucky1]

Paul,

I read the north facing mountain literature too.
Yet another site indicated the mountain at 7,000 feet.
Google Earth will one day include factors such as elevation.
Takil was easy to spell, two other sites differed on the spelling of Nanital (Naini Tal).

rapidly evolving genes
Does that mean mutations?
You're educated on this topic; you'll simply have to teach us

This Canadian palm lover awaits a palm that won't need winter protection.
It'll be a long wait.
Barb

[Barrie]

It's interesting to try and understand the Trachycarpus mystery. Unfortunate that the seeds collected by Martin Gibbons where mislabled or misidentified, initailly thought to be T. takil, and later he retracted that claim realizing they where a form of fortunei from Nanaital.
There's probably many enthusiasts that believe they are growing Trachycarpus takil when in fact it's 'Nanaital'.

Cheers, Barrie.

[Paul Ont]

Hey All! I tried to reply earlier but my internet connection crashed...
So I'll respond in a shorter message.

By rapidly evolving I mean genes that are not under intense selective pressure (i.e genes with high rates of nucleotide substitutions, mutations, insertions, deletions, etc.)...

To add to the takil debate I found one article and reread another one. The palms are found between 2000 and 2500m (6500 and 8200 feet). The interesting thing I found was from an article on the Beccari garden which says: "Though Florence has a sub-Mediterranean
climate, it should be mentioned that
during the cold winter of 1984–85, several
palms died inside the garden, including
Phoenix sylvestris (L.) Roxb., Butia
capitata (Mart.) Becc., Washingtonia robusta
H. Wendl. and Brahea armata S.
Watson. That winter was exceptionally
cold with a lot of snow4, with temperatures
down to –23°C. Interestingly, some
Trachycarpus fortunei died, whereas T.
takil survived. The same observation was
made in the urban area of Florence,
where the author could identify only one
specimen of T. fortunei that exceeds an
age of 20 years. Beccari reported that T.
fortunei was planted as early as 1870 at
several spots in Florence. This leads to the
conclusion that T. takil is as tolerant to
winter frosts as T. fortunei under sub-
Mediterranean climate conditions..."
I might have to take back my comment about T. takil probably not being as hardy as fortunei...

Cheers,
Paul

Full text is available at: http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/aug102007/295.pdf

[lucky1]

Paul,

genes that are not under intense selective pressure (i.e genes with high rates of nucleotide substitutions, mutations, insertions, deletions

Thanks for that...I think

Before the 84/85 winter, there was disagreement on what Beccari was growing.
He wasn't clear on which of his three seed sources got seed from where...

So could it be that Trachy fortunei seeds collected from Nainital region are hardier than T.fortunei seeds from 10 miles away...possibly and likely, yes. But they're still T.fortunei.
Barb

[Paul Ont]

Before the 84/85 winter, there was disagreement on what Beccari was growing.
He wasn't clear on which of his three seed sources got seed from where...

So could it be that Trachy fortunei seeds collected from Nainital region are hardier than T.fortunei seeds from 10 miles away...possibly and likely, yes. But they're still T.fortunei.
Barb

Barb,
I hope that my explaination of rapidly evolving genes was satisfactory!

I've had to go back and check the phylogenies from this thesis to see what the difference between the T. takils in India and those in Florence (and Rome)...
In the 2 phylogenies including 'takil' specimens from both 'Indian' and Europe ('Rome/Florence') both groups remain seperate from the rest of the Trachycarpus (The Indian group being closer to the rest of the genus in one, the Rome/Florence group in the other... most closely related to T. princeps (T. 'manipur and oreophilius are not included)...) In both cases, however, they are clearly seperate from T. fortunei... There is an exception though, one specimen of takil from the University of Rome is clearly not a takil (apparently it's closely related to T. wagnerianus)! Talk about confusion!

I think the problem here is that we have a group of palms that are all EXTREMELY closely related and spinning of data can lend support to either side of the argument! I'm inclined to follow the phylogeneitc data that says that most of the 'takils' in India and Florence/Rome are not closely related to T. fortunei, and that these palms are very cold tolerant. I like this story much better then the one that says that all the takil's in Italy that have survived cold temps are fortunei!

If you want to continue to discuss this please send me an email at p _ ont5a at Yahoo dotca (take the spaces out)... I find this topic fascinating!

[lucky1]

Paul,
one more thing...did you notice that some of the Beccari garden observations were "from outside the fence" (or something like that). Perhaps even the ordinarily-willing Ms.Beccari found these researchers tedious the second and third time round and wouldn't open the gate?

I admit I should've stayed in university. Then I'd be able to keep up with you.
the only thing that remains is my curiosity.

What do we know now?
1. rapidly evolving genes (producing hybrids).
2. Recent Trachywhatever from India (and likely China) are considerably more cold hardy than old "strains" of Trachy from 50+ years ago, likely pointing to (1).

Theory: I bet even Marty Gibbons wants to see more DNA research.

It is fascinating, Paul, I agree.
But I'll stop now 'coz phylogenies (phylogenes?) are way over my head.
Thanks for this!
Barb

[Paul Ont]

Thanks for this Barb! I always have fun discussing/debateing the trachycarpus issue!
How are your palms doing so far this winter?

[nucci60]

Macario, what happened to Tesan? that was going to be the promised land of all trachys. Have you had luck with your seedlings?

[lucky1]

Hi Paul, yup, I like reading the research stuff...though most data barely sinks in
Feel free to PM any literature you discover.

My palms are doing fine. Half my plants are in the barely-heated building, where it's about 42 to 45 F, including the 31 yr old Trachy fortunei and same aged Jade Tree, Phoenix c., C.revoluta, Calamondin oranges, succulents, etc.
The other half--the warm winter plants--are in the house, including Musa basjoo, Dioons edule and spinulosum and Zamias (from Lori), and Madagascar lamerei, and spindle + triangle palms, strelitzia, several young sabals and Chamaerops h. cerifera (from Barrie).

Then, there are the s-l-o-w seeds -- copernicia, bismarckia, brahea super silver and armata -- beside the woodstove in the basement.

Did I miss posted pics of your palms?

Yes, what's happened with Tesan? It was surely part of the research mix-ups?
Barb

[Paul Ont]

Ha! Your Trachy is a few years older then I am!
I haven't posted any pics of my palms... I have a few pics of the winter damage they received last year and their subsequent (slow) recovery. I have a single fortunei and a needle plam planted out. The Trachy was completely toastd in spring (I think I cooked it inside a Rhodo cone) and had the spear pull... I treated it with fungicide and in late June a weak, badly damaged new leaf emerged. I think it currently has 3 leaves, which I've wrapped in frst cloth, surrounded with mulch and left to contend with the cold! My new strategy, which I will employ next year on a waggie, will involve a mini-greenhouse, heated by a low-wattage heating cable wrapped around a jug of water!
The needle palm looked like it had little damage, but when I noticed that the spear leaf had been still for a month, I gave it a little tug and it pulled easily... I should have treated it in early spring... Oh well, now I know. Anyway, the main stem died but I still have 4 suckers (much smaler then the main stem), to play with.
I also have quite a few Sabal minor, a large T. nanital, A few Washingtonias and a bunch of random sedlings!
I also have an extensive outdoor cactus garden, many Yuccas, Dasylirion, Agave, Hesperaloe, etc...
Phewf!
Here is the needle with the main stem missing.

Here is what T. fortunei should not look like:

And, to prove that I'm not just a butcer, here is a Dasylirion texanum... Behind it you can see some 3 year old seed grown Yucca elata's, and behind them is a Yucca thompsoniana:

Closeup of the thompsoniana:

And, finally, one portion of the cactus bed (I made the bed in July 2006, picture from July 2007):

[lucky1]

Hi Paul,
Ya, make me feel old

You're optimistic ...a trachy and needle without winter protection in 4a, 5b ?

Your Trachy looks healthy! Proof to not be hasty to compost a palm after a spear pull.
Good testament to fungicides.

Great that your needle sent up suckers...it would be relatively cheap/easy to put a three-sided enclosure against that wall.

Nice looking yuccas/sotol. Any winter protection for them? Which seedhouse do you use?
Very nice cactus bed. Lots of cactus addicts on this forum.
Did you amend the slope with sand, or is it native?

Looks like you've got lots of room for more plants!
Thanks for the pics.
Barb

[Paul Ont]

Ya, I thought the trachy was toast, but I decided to give it a chance to come back and then I started to feel sorry for it as it struggled to send up that first leaf! Poor thing. I hope I didn't lead you astray, the palms are protected (the needle had burlap last winter, the trachy a rhodo cone)... This winter both have frost cloth and a thick layer of mulch! Actually I'm dissappointed with the needle, I thought tha a zone worth of protection would suffice to overwinter most of the foliage... I was wrong!
One of the Yuccas (glorisa variegata) is protected this winter. Though I only gave it a burlap wrap... All others (in the bed pictured) are left to face the winter! I have another bed that is more shaded along the south side of the house (which is where the Yucca elata that the rabbits consumed is) which gets a lean-to shelter to keep rain off. It has open sides so the plants are still subjected to low (lower probably then those in the other bed, which benefit from a snow cover) temperatures.
My current favorites for Yucca etc. seeds are Mesa garden (always good) and the Desert northwest (the best for hardy sourced seeds!)

The soil in the garden is pure sand (Horticultural sand from RONA) topped with pea gravel (maybe 1/2"-1"). It drains VERY quickly, but with the excess of rain that I get it's not a bad thing. If there is no rain for 10 days or so, I will water lightly!

I've already sent in my spring order to beaver creek greenhouses for some new cacti! I'll also be heading to Broadway Gardens (in St. Catherines) to pick up a few new palms (probably another needle, now that I think I know what to do with it!)

Cheers,
Paul

[lucky1]

Paul,
oops sorry I did see the reference to burlap and a rhodo cone.
Both were likely below the minimum protection.
I bet if you put a plastic-lined wooden apple box (for example) and a heating cable on the soil, that trachy'd thank you with two feet of growth next year.

I'm not familiar with growing needles...but I'd guess one zone isn't going to be enough unless you've got the micro climate on your side. Two to three zones are often still iffy.

So during your mild weather you remove the protection?...a lot of work I bet.
Your cacti love that sand environment! Wise of you to amend with sand/gravel.

I hope you repost your cactus/yucca bed pics under Anything Cacti and/or Anything Yucca...fans of succulents there, who'll be interested in your seed sources.

Good luck purchasing more palms...I've heard of a local nursery getting a new shipment of houseplants tomorrow...they must've heard me grumbling that nothing decent arrives in winter.
Barb

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb great news Vernon is a zone 6, Kelowna zone 6b Osoyoos zone 7. I have eight 2 gal. T. takil. They are faster growing with bigger fronds than their Trachy cousins. Now I just have to wait another 4 years to plant them. The Trachy and needles I have in the ground are doing fine so far. Only 6 more weeks till I can say they all made it. I`ll post an update with pics.

John

[lucky1]

John, zone SIX
I sincerely hope/wish you are right...alas even updated maps show my area considerably colder (in the Coldstream Valley), probably because of the effect of the Monashee Mountains ? You'd think Ag Dept would have better maps...but nope.
I'll be satisfied when maps show me as a Zone 8

Guess we'll know when we see somebody's Trachy growing beyond a roofline.

Good to hear your pyramid winter protection was sufficient. How was it with snowload?

Takil and Nainital are always getting good "hardy" reviews.
Your Takils looked very robust in your last pictures...why the 4 year wait?
That big one on your patio in summer in the wooden box...was that your Trachy?

Barb

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb at what elevation are you? I was under the assumption you were near valley floor. Barb no problems with snow as the pitch angle of the pyramid lets all the snow drop to the base.Most of the winter it has been off. I won`t plant anything until the trunk is at least 4" to 5" circumfrence. Those ones I have pictured on my deck are T.fortunei. The 2 gal T.takils are in my palm-garage LOL and I will update some photos of them as well.

John

[lucky1]

John, we're NEAR valley floor...guessing about 100 feet up, maybe a bit more.
Vernon's elevation I believe is 1200 feet above sea level...
It'd be cool to know exactly

The pyramid shape is an excellent idea, and the shed snow would build up as a blanket along the sides.
The palm-garage (cars out in the snow)
Look forward to your pics.
Barb

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb here is the 2000 zone map for Vernon 6a and the Okanagan.
http://nlwis-snite1.agr.gc.ca/plant00/index.phtml#

On the right side menu click on find place type Vernon or any city you want to find. Then click legend to match the coresponding colors to the zones. I found it very interesting that Trail, Castlegar,Nelson B.C. are a 6b. This data was collected from 1990 to 1999. I`m sure the new zone map that comes out in 2010 will show us in the Okanagan 6b to 7a.

[lucky1]

John,
Thanks for that map.
I had seen it earlier but "got nowhere" until today.

It'd likely take Google Earth to nail it down more closely, but Environment Canada shows me somewhere at 5a, 5b.
But 6a seems to be my neighbour (nearly).

I just have to remember when it's raining in Vernon, it's snowing at my place (*poop*).
I'll update zone profile...
Barb