Protection Ideas??

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:58 pm

So I thought it was about time to start bringing up the question of what protection method/methods are you trying this year with your hardy palms and subtropicals. Bill and I had a long chat the other afternoon about this and floated some ideas back and forth. A lot of us on this board are starting to get quite the collection of plants that we are going to need to protect in the winter. I am not complaining however and know that what I have to protect is still a fraction of what others have to! But it's all part of the fun, right?!!

I plan on using the same space heater/palm hut for my smaller (no as small now) garden off the deck. But I think due to the size this will be the last year for that. I am going to try and overwinter some of my smaller palms with protection but no heat. I finally was able to locate a place where I live that sells thermo cubes so I will be trying the c-9 light protection method too.

While I was tracking down a thermo cube I was looking at heat lamps. I was wondering if anyone has tried this idea with a thermo cube. Would it be more effective than c-9 lights or cheaper?? I know that you would have to keep the lamp further from the palm not to burn it. I thought about that idea when I was in a hotel this year and they use those lights in the bathroom sometimes. Would love all your input and sharing of methods that you might be trying this year...

But hey we still have another month of summer and hopefully a nice warm fall!!

Scott

Cameron_z6a_N.S. · Post by **Cameron_z6a_N.S.** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:37 pm

Scott, I can tell you (from when I used to keep reptiles) that the heat lamps (if we're talking about the same type

) won't be able to spread out the heat as evenly as c9 lights. They're good at emitting a lot of heat in a small area, but if you only have 1 lamp near the top of a palm, the top leaves will absorb all of the heat (and probably burn after awhile), while the leaves at the bottom won't receive much heat at all. With c9 lights, you can wrap them all the way around the palms and spread out the heat more evenly

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:03 pm

I agree, Scott, that is all part of the fun. My wife always wants me to dig it all up and bring it inside, and I say the protection planning is integral to the hobby!
Also, I now feel that winter protection is less time consuming and cheaper than Summer protection. I spend SO much time watering lately, and the water bills exceed the extra electricity I use in winter.
And with the heat, it is refreshing to think that winter will come. Eventually.

Basically, the more I protected last winter, the better palms came out of winter and the faster it has grown. So, more is better. Except for bananas where less was more.
I have a lot of trouble with rot in late winter, so I don't think the leaf pile method is good for me unless I refresh it regularly.
I was very happy with my two trials with plumber's heat tape and so will do more of that.
As for a palm hut, my 4' cube will be way too small for the Butia. It has grown like crazy. I'll share a photo sometime next month as no one will believe it otherwise. I'm thinking of more like 8' cube and including the three new Cham. radicalis. No idea how to heat that big a volume, if I should even try. I don't know anything about thermocubes, so I'll investigate them.
My biggest challenge will be that huge cabbage palm. It is far from any electric outlets, so it would need a very long extension cord to get C-9 lights out there.
Anyway, I have a lot longer to figure this all out than the rest of you, so I'll be paying following your threads and asking questions. --Erik

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:49 pm

Scott I have used the 200 watt infrared heat lamps for the last four winters. I aim them on the trunk at about six inches from ground level. The coldest My Trachy`s have been is -17.3c and have done really well so far. Works for me so I`ll keep using them.

John

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:01 pm

John,
that's interesting. We use a bunch of those 200w infrared bulbs in the barn for chickens and baby goats so I am very familiar with them. They do get quite hot (that's the point!) so we have to be careful to not start a fire.
Are the Trachys you use these lamps on enclosed in palm huts or out in the open?
--Erik

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:12 pm

Erik I use them under my 2"x2" wood framed clear plastic palm huts. I will turn on as many as three depending on how cold it is outside. Hopefully I won`t have to use all of them this winter.

John

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:49 am

How much insulation are you planning on using?

To me heat lamps are a lot of watts and not particularly effective,not saying they don't work
but at least in the case of c-7 or c-9 bulbs you can spread them out.

I found some large bubble,bubble wrap( in 125' rolls) I am trying this year,more insulation
less watts,I am hoping to cut the number of bulbs down to 1/2 or less and increase
the heat retention,in conjunction with thermocubes.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:40 am

Interesting topic Scotty!

I've decided to get better insulation for my 'Palm hut' since I want it to stay above -15C...

I think I'll continue to use the mini-lights since I've had really good luck with them in the past! I have not decided how to protect my BBB yet... I think it'll need lights and a wrapping to avoid too much damage. I might also give it a trunk wrap with that white frost cloth to avoid trunk split form the late freezes (or early freezes) that happen in my area!

I'm still toying with the idea of placing a bunch of Trachy seedlings in a leaf pile to make more room for more interesting seedlings in the basement.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:16 pm

Not sure about the insulation.. Was thinking of wrapping the trunk with burlap then the c-9 light around that, then putting stakes around the palm all wrapped up and wrapping it in clear plastic. I have a thermo cube that is a 20f on 30f off, so hopefully wont run all the time during the winter.

I didn't know you got a magnolia Paul?? How big?? Mine has completly bounced back from last winter and has even more growth than last year. I'm trying two magnolia's with out any wrap this year.. I'm fairly optomistic..

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:41 pm

Scotty- Awesome. Southern Magnolia is one that I only played with once and lost first winter. I don't know if anyone in our area has had success for more than a year, and certainly no one has tried one without a wrapping! I'll be very interested in how they fare. What cultivar are they?

I'm going to give mine 5 years or so to get established before I consider trying it unwrapped. My fear is always that we'll drop below -30C, which would be death to many of the borderline plants.

I'd say the Mag is maybe 5 feet high... It was a great deal, so I couldn't pass it up!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:48 am

That's cool Paul! I have a BBB, a DD Blanchard a little Gem and 2 Edith Bogues. I planted my BBB at the end of last Aug. Wrapped it in plastic in mid Dec. 80% lost it's leaves by April but my June had put on more than it had last year. No stem dieback. Gave it Bordo and wilt pruf many times before wrapping it...

Aug 2009

Nov 2009

March 2010

July 2010

Behind the castor.

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:51 am

Forgot to mention that it saw one low of minus 18.9c and a few nights in the mid minus teens.. I watered it when it got mild but left the bottom of the wrapping open so snow and rain could get in..

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:45 am

Ya, it looks really good... I think I'll give mine more protection than you gave yours, only because it's smaller and I'm a bit colder up by my place! But, I mean worst case scenario is I lose a 30 dollar Magnolia, and really, that's not so bad.

I have a few other Mag's in the ground now too, they're small, but I think I'll post the pics in my recent thread because they are some interesting plants!

How many times has your BBB bloomed?

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:08 pm

Yeah you should, I would love to see them! They are my favourite other than palms!!
The BBB put out one bloom in mid July and looks like a few more might be coming in the next 6 weeks or so.. It looks like it wants to leaf out again too...

bananieru · Post by **bananieru** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:45 pm

Kevin from Southcoastgardens suggested to wrap the magnolia in white sheet in the winter. Brown burlap may attract too much sun and burn the leaves.

Tavi

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:28 pm

Tavi- I believe Kevin uses that white plastic trunk wrapping stuff that you occasionally see. I'm thinking that I will use frost cloth since it is thicker and will afford some protection in addition to reflecting the sunlight!

bananieru · Post by **bananieru** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:30 pm

Paul, I think he was referring to something like bedding sheet. He mentioned that you should always plant the magnolia near a pole, and then wrap the cloth over both. This way it's also protected from heavy wind or snow.

Tavi

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:26 am

Tavi- You're absolutely right. It was sheets... Maybe I'll break out the old He-Man sheets and wrap them around my mag this winter... nah!

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:27 am

No way! I would keep those on the bed!!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:52 am

Paul do you have the Ferrari bed for those sheets?

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:28 am

No no, not anymore, I got rid of that bed a couple years ago now...

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:32 am

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:21 pm

I probably shouldn't ask, but what's a Ferrari bed?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:53 am

Stumbled on some protection pics here:
http://palmae.free.fr/protection.htm

minimum protection for those needing only a bit.

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:31 pm

Great link, Barb!
Mon Francais est mal,
but my browser offered to translate and that worked surprisingly well.
I liked the photographs. I often have trouble visualizing protection methods I just read about.
What I'd really like this Fall are some more YouTube videos like the ones Steve and Scott made for us last year.
Since you're all a month ahead of me, I can watch and get ideas.
--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:35 pm

Your French is better than my Oklahomian

Erik, I had forgotten to post this other link for those needing more protection (like most of us).
I really like the hardware connectors.
Scroll down a bit for pictures.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load ... 16595.html

Holy! LOOK AT THIS PIC FROM ST. LOUIS! Wish I could see a summer photo:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1415 ... 4601omtzoY

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:10 pm

barb- Those St. Louis pics of protection... Are those the famous large Washies? If I recall correctly those have been there since the late 1980's. Very impressive, especially for a zone 6!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:47 pm

I think you're right Erik, but I couldn't find out any more from their webshots.
That one is a canary island date palm (CIDP), fabulous specimen.
I wish the owner would join PN !!

I had searched "Palms winter protection" on google images.
amazing pics came up.

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:41 pm

Maybe Jim knows where those Washies are?
I'll be up there next month for one of W's horse shows (BTW: she took 2nd and 1st in two carriage driving events this morning.)

I am enjoying this thread as it lets me think about cool weather. Today it is 100oF outdoors (75oF dewpoint; no breeze); full AC has it down to 87oF indoors. I haven't watered yet as I got heat exhaustion at the horse show today and am confined to bed rest until it cools down outside. We got down to 80oF this morning, so hopefully that will happen again.
I just want to remind y'all for when I start gloating in November about not having a freeze yet....
--Erik
P.S. y'all is Oklahomian

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:37 pm

Hey Erik, maybe you can find out location of those St.Louis palms and take some pics when you're there

:
It'd be wonderful to get the owner to visit PN so we can see more of his photos and get his tips.

Congrats on W's carriage events today...that must've been brutal in that heat.
Don't blame you at all for thinking about cooler weather after your heat wave.
You may still have it in November

Feel better soon!
Barb

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:28 pm

C'est En Francais?? Thanks for posting those Barb.. I'll be sure to make some vids in the fall when I am making my structures!!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:37 pm

Looking forward to another video of yours Scotty.
Great one last time!

The way your palms are growing, you'll have to get shares in a plywood manufacturer.

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:06 pm

Scott,
oui, je voudrais des videos du methodes pour les palmes en l'hiver.
(Was that even close? I last studied Francaise 20 years ago.)
My wife is designing in her mind a huge PVC-framed, plastic-covered, heated greenhouse for the large Butia, three Chamaeadorea radicalis, two Musa basjoo, a Zingiber, et alia. Her dad built things like it in Michigan when she was growing up. We don't get as cold as Michigan but much more wind.
That big cabbage palm is still a mystery. I'll be pestering y'all for ideas the next couple of months.
Everything else is small enough I can use versions of previous methods, albeit on a larger scale as my Summer palm growth has been fantastic. Plastic trash cans vs. 20 gallon buckets, etc. --Erik

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:47 am

You're french is way better than mine Erik!! And I was born in Quebec!!
PVC piping eh? I think Stosh does that with lots of success!! Not sure what to do with the cabbage palm becasue it's too big?? Maybe cut it down quite a bit?? You guys have such warm springs/summer it should grow back quite quickly..

I know Barb... My garage is full of it right now!! I need to change things up for next year! Maybe shares in plastic!!

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:35 am

I remember going by that house with the triple decker greenhouse!

This was over 20 years ago and that big Trachy by the g-house wasn't there.

I also remember they had some big Agaves out in the yard.

Pretty funny that I have actually seen that place before,those people have been at that a long time!

Somebody did post pics on this forum of some Washy's by a pool,there was a newspaper article with it
maybe that's the one your thinking of Paul?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:34 am

Sorry Paul, missed your posting.
I don't recall hearing about the St.Louis property before this.

Jim, if you were there 20 years ago...bet you weren't yet interested in palms

I'm dying to learn and see more about that place and the owners (do they participate anywhere on the internet?)

Barb

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:08 pm

I was trying to look it up on Youtube but I swear they had a video about them and how they protect them in the winter.. You remember that eh Bill??? They cut the fronds and use a space heater??

ScottyON · Post by **ScottyON** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:34 pm

Is this the property you guys were thinking of???

http://videos.stltoday.com/p/video?id=7814111

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:41 pm

Nice video. Good, strong palm hut structure for that tall tree in a windy microclimate.
Do you think they really need to do that extreme a hurricane cut on that Washingtonia?
--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:58 pm

Scotty thanks for posting that.
I have seen that video.
Pretty severe haircut, I agree, Erik.
I don't think these people had a Canary Island Date Palm, though.

The property doesn't look the same as this shot with winter protection in place:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1415 ... 4601omtzoY

Now I'm REALLY curious

OK do we have to wait for Erik to go to St. Louis next month?

Barb

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