Outside protection Zone 6 - 2011

Discuss greenhouse related topics and outside weather protection methods.

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oppalm
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Outside protection Zone 6 - 2011

Post by oppalm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:05 am

I am getting ready to protect my outdoor inground palms before wintertime 2011. Thought first I would show you some little trachycarpus fortuneis I planted on the north side of my house in 2009 (probably during summer months but not absolutely certain when they went in ground). I had a bunch of seeds that germinated that year and I put these in ground as sacrificial lambs just to see if I could overwinter them with no heat. They have been covered the last 2 winters with a pile of leaves maybe 18" (inches) deep with a plastic trash bag over the top just to keep them dry.
No supplemantal heat provided. Our lows over the last 2 years have been right around 0F, maybe 5-7 nights each winter.


first pic is taken Oct 2010. There is 5 little fortuneis and 1 chinese fan pam right in the middle of the pic.

Image

second pic, below, taken Nov 5, 2011. I am amazed at the growth from Oct 2010 to Nov 2011.

Image
Last edited by oppalm on Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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lucky1
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Post by lucky1 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:08 pm

Kent,
I've never seen that much growth on seedlings in one year...truly amazing :D

No doubt because of the 18 FEET (inches?) of leaves on top. :lol: :lol:

Really impressed with the Chinese Fan Palm too.
Who would've thought it would make it without heat/styrofoam.

Look forward to seeing your winter protection pics.

Barb
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oppalm
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Post by oppalm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:40 pm

18" of leaves is correct. I edited my post for clarity. Thanks Barb.
Kent in Kansas
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and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by lucky1 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:23 pm

Just teasing you Kent.

Was going to ask how you found them again with 18 feet of leaves on top. :booty:

Good that winter hasn't yet arrived at your place.
Barb
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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:27 pm

Fantastic work, Oppalm! The survival of that Livistona is surprising!
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Post by oppalm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:59 am

I, too was surprised when the Livistonia chinensis grew back this year. who woulda thunk it?

put Trachy #1 to sleep for the winter last weekend. This is the first trachy I planted in ground in 2006. It was a 1 year old seedling at the time I planted it. It has never received supplemental heat during winter, just a hut with leaves crammed in it.

Image

Heres a pic with the box around it. the box is about 3' X 3' x 3' high.

Image

Heres a pic with the hut full of leaves. I'll put a piece of plastic over the top to keep the moisture out and shes good for 5 months. I should also say that I spray the entire tree liberally with a fungicide and allow it dry for a few hours before I pack the leaves in the hut.

Image
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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lucky1
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Post by lucky1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:52 am

Kent, good looking Trachy.
South side of your house?

What's the lowest temp since 2006?

Barb
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Post by oppalm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:02 am

south side of house. However, because of sun angle and the dam neighbors house the sun does not reach this palm. lowest temp is probably around 0F (-17C) over the past 5-6 years. I will add that I did an experiment 2-3 years ago where I put a remote thermometer in the bottom of a leaf pile that was was 6' long by 4' wide and 2' deep and the lowest temp inside that leaf pile was about 27F (-2C) during the winter where we had lows of about 0F (-17C). My point being that leaves will insulate and hold temps.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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lucky1
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Post by lucky1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:22 am

Thanks for sharing that info, Kent.
A 15C gain is considerable.
Presume you don't get strong winds there if neighbor's house blocks the sun from enclosure.

Wish now I had planted Trachies out front -- versus 2 Washy filifera (inside the blue "igloos")
Between the two washies are 3 y.rostrata.
I'm heating all 5 enclosures with Christmas lights on a thermocube, so I was reluctant to use leaves inside in case of fire.

I filled garbage bags with leaves and stacked them around y.rostratas hoping to keep surrounding ground warmer.
Still have lots more leaves to bag and place there.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6320158531/" title="DSC05082 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6116/632 ... 208298.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC05082"></a>

Looks like a garbage strike... :|
H isn't impressed.

With our lowest temps at -23C (-9F) for at least a few days every winter, do you think leaf enclosures ALONE would work?
Probably riskier, huh?

Barb
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Post by oppalm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:59 am

whats the blue exterior material made of? FWIW my wife would not be impressed with those blue igloos, but I am. It shows creativity and a "get er done" attitude. I like.

I don't think leaf enclosures will cut it for washy's with your or my low temps. Keep in mind, inside my leaf pile, the remote thermometer was nearly on the ground, sitting about 2" off the ground so it was bascially measuring the soil temp on top of the ground. Now, if that remote thermometer had been 2' in the air, I think it would have been much colder , possibly as cold as outside air temp. I think you are doing the right thing by using lights on a thermocube for your washys.
Last edited by oppalm on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by hardyjim » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:43 am

Barb-did you put a sensor in there to monitor the temps over winter?
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Post by lucky1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:59 am

Sorry to derail your thread Kent but I knew you'd be interested in how nice your protection looks versus mine :lol:
whats the blue exterior material made of? FWIW my wife would not be impressed with those blue igloos
a roll of hardwood floor underlayment that I found in the basement. Score! (free)
I love digging around the barn/shop/basement and using stuff I find...dusty stuff.
Agree w your wife (so does my H); it is ugly as sin.
Fortunately our property slopes UP from the road behind a berm of junipers, so traffic can't see the blue igloos.
Otherwise H would've VETOED it...(the presidential veto) :cry:
did you put a sensor in there
Yup, sensor is suspended about a foot off the ground.
But it's the bloody laCrosse sensor whose display is OFF more than ON.
Every time I look at it, it reads "--".
Have only seen it register a temperature once since installation... :?

And I can't see the Christmas lights ON, since no lights shine through all the wrap/insulation/foam.

This is definitely a trial for the Washies and yucca rostratas.

Sorry Kent...back to your thread.

Barb
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Post by KrisK » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:50 am

Looks good guys n gals!

We"be been fairly fortunate here in OK
I mean winter-weather-wise,
We may have to come up with Earthquake, Tornado, and high summer temp protection tho!

Kent, do you grow any bananas? If so how do you protect them? We had a frost a few wks ago that zapped all the leaves from bananas, ee's, etc. So now I just have a bunch of big tall P-stems with one leaf lol. It's too soon to protect them but I use a method much like you use for the trachy. It paid off as I got a bloom and tiny bananas this year.

Last year I think I wrapped everyone up about mid Dec. I'll have to document it like you two have done here.

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oppalm
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Post by oppalm » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:38 am

KrisK - yes I grow banana plants. I have one musa basjoo I leave in ground, cut the stem down to about 12" high, and then mulch with about 24" of leaves and cover with plastic. Its been in ground about 3 years, and has grown larger each year, yet no pups. Not sure why I have no pups. I have several types of bananas that I dig out of the ground and store in the basement and replant in late spring. I'll post a pic. I cut the stem as high as possible to store, have sizes ranging from 4' to 8' p-stem.

Would love to see pics of what you are doing.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:45 am

I'm keen to see what KrisK does as well.
Kent, did you really only get to 0 F last February, when Don, Kris and I were more like -20 F?
Must be the case, with your Livistonia being alive....

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Post by KrisK » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:24 am

Well
We have lows well above the high 20's (which is pretty much doom for basjoo p-stems) for as far as the forecast goes. I'll make a new thread when it comes time to wrap everyone up for winter. Don't want to thread-jack Kent. Last year I experimented and protected one clump and left the other to winter's effect. The protected clump bloomed but the non-protected did not; however the non-protected grew almost as tall as the year old plants. This year I'll protect both as I want to relocate them behind my deck.

Image

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Post by lucky1 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:02 pm

Great photo.
You and hardyjim have done it!

Barb
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:40 pm

I'll say. I've tried for years to get a Musa to flower and never done it.
The student has succeeded the master! :D
(Inside joke; Kris was an Ecology student of mine many, many years ago. Like, in the last century.)

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Post by lucky1 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:31 pm

Yes, Grasshopper did well...
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Post by oppalm » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:27 am

heres a pic of how I overwinter the 5 little trachys and livistonia chinensis on the north side of my house. no heat, its just leaves crammed in the box and a roof over the top to keep winter rain and snow out. Little box is made of 1X2's hammered in ground and then a frame made around the top. Takes about 30 minutes to construct. easy.

Image
Image
Image
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by hardyjim » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:29 am

those are dead for sure
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Post by oppalm » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:37 am

hardyjim wrote:those are dead for sure
not yet. they survived as seedlings last year in the same set-up, see the first pics in this thread. Jim, I live year to year baby, if they don't survive, I just plant more. Thats the kind of guy I am. I am just livin' on the edge.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by lucky1 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:55 pm

They sure look healthy after a previous winter outdoors.
Gonna separate them before they get 8 feet tall, Kent? :P

...from another edge liver.
(not liver, like the organ).
Barb
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Post by hardyjim » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:42 am

oppalm wrote:
hardyjim wrote:those are dead for sure
not yet. they survived as seedlings last year in the same set-up, see the first pics in this thread. Jim, I live year to year baby, if they don't survive, I just plant more. Thats the kind of guy I am. I am just livin' on the edge.




You are cracking me up!-LOL

I'm sure they will do great :oops:
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Post by oppalm » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:06 pm

I was busy today. proof is pictures of my winter protection for my trachy fortunei. built 2 palm huts just like this.

Build the frame up around it. install an outdoor spot light fixture and a 20/30F thermocube. a very simple construction project. Just pounded the 1X2's into the ground maybe 6" or so and framed up around top.

Image

then installed the R-13 fiberglass insulation by wrapping around the outside of the 1X2's. I keep it about 2" off the ground so it will not get wet.

Image

and finally wrapped it with some stealth camoflauge tarp. I hope you can see the hut, its in the middle of the pic. now we set back have a vodka/soda and watch football.

Image
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by oppalm » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:11 pm

lucky1 wrote:They sure look healthy after a previous winter outdoors.
Gonna separate them before they get 8 feet tall, Kent? :P

I suppose I will dig them up and transplant in the springtime if they survive winter. I just planted them because I had excess seeds and wanted to see what would happen as small seedlings overwinter with no heat.


...from another edge liver.

Nice liver Barb. I trust you take good care of it.
Kent in Kansas
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and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:21 pm

Love the cammo! That is great.

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lucky1
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Post by lucky1 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:24 pm

What cammo? Where? :clown:

You must have no rocks otherwise pounding 1x2s six inches into the ground would turn it into chopsticks.
I used a sledgehammer and replacement aluminum broomhandles ($1 at the dollar store).
Hit a rock and BOING, a 40 degree turn thataway :?

I see an electrical cord...got a heater in there? lights?

Did that Trachy spend last winter outdoors?

Smart to keep the insulation off the ground, Kent.

Barb
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Post by oppalm » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:30 am

Barb,

No rocks in the soil. The 1X2's went in ground quite easy, and they were .79 cents each at HD.

This is the first year for this Trachy in ground. It was planted in ground in April 2011. Birthday gift from my wife and kids in 2010. The electrical cord is for the thermo cube (20F/30F) (-6C/-1C) thats plugged into 60W light bulb (incandescent). I also have put a wireless thermometer in the hut which I can read from the kitchen window receiving unit. It works. we are only about 50 feet away from the palm hut when standing inside the cozy confines of our kitchen. So I can keep an eye on temps and obsess about that every morning and night.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:50 pm

Perfect, I like it, Kent.

Next year I'll try some lighter frames if my Washies/yuccas make it through this winter.
I'll find a way, despite rocky soil.
keep an eye on temps and obsess about that every morning and night.
Obsessive only BEGINS when you RECORD temps twice a day.
And freak when the remote display gives a " -- " :shock:

Barb
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hardyjim
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Post by hardyjim » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:34 am

Yep....

I usually keep track of about 6-7 different enclosures
all winter,hi/lo recorded until protection is lifted.
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Post by wxman » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:37 am

Lets hope the bulb doesn't burn out in January!
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Post by oppalm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:22 pm

wxman wrote:Lets hope the bulb doesn't burn out in January!
alright like I don't have enough to worry about. I put a brand new bulb in the fixture and I intend to sleep outside next to the palm hut so I can monitor the temps more closely (j/k). Actually I'll just have to monitor the temps every 2 hours in the hut and if the temps get to low I'll have to run outside in the freezing cold weather and sleet and snow and put a new light bulb in the fixture. I have been practicing my 30 yard sprints just in case I am forced to run outside in the early morning hours. I actually move pretty fast for an aging insurance man. You will be interested to learn I have 2 lights in my other palm hut just in case one goes out.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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lucky1
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Post by lucky1 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:20 pm

That was funny, Kent.

Even though you've got a remote thermometer to keep track of temps, why not cut a 2-inch "window" in the cammo, and double-plastic it inside and outside with tape.
Then you can SEE when the light's on, and temps will presumably be heading back upwards.
Instead of streaking...trying to take the protection apart in a blizzard...just to install a new bulb.

:lol: :lol:
Barb
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Location: KS - zone 6

Post by oppalm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:51 pm

I did leave a small 2" piece of insulation off of the top left hand corner and can see when the light is on (at night).
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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oppalm
Small Palm
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:48 am
Location: KS - zone 6

Post by oppalm » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:03 pm

Road Trip. Left this morning at 6:30AM to travel 2 1/2 hours to our lake house to cover 3 palms I have in-ground before the really cold weather sets in. I planted 1 trachycarpus fortunei and 2 sabal minors (very small 3 strap leaves) in April 2010. Covered them last winter with leaves and a trash bag. Heres how I do it. Cut a slit in the bottom of the trash bag, slip it over the palm and then duct tape the bottom inside closed, so it fits tight around the base of the palm. Here's a pic of what I'm working with. The little palm is maybe 2' tall, so its not huge. The Lake of the Ozarks is in southwest Missouri zone 6a. About the same zone I have at home, so winter protection is about the same.

Image

Then pull the bag up and stuff it full of leaves. No shortage of leaves at the lake as there are about 30 trees on the property. The house was built in the 60's , so the trees are huge and they have tons of leaves. It gets windy at the lake , so I secure with rope and tent stakes pounded into the ground to hold the bag in place. I do the same thing on the little sabal minors except the trash bags are about half the size.

Image
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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TerdalFarm
Palm Grove
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:48 pm
Location: Manzanita, OR
Contact:
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Post by TerdalFarm » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:57 pm

Nice!
I didn't know you had a 2nd palm garden, especially one that nice.
Does the water freeze? If not, that should help moderate temps in the microclimate.

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lucky1
Arctic Palm Plantation
Posts: 11325
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:31 pm
Location: Vernon BC, Zone 5a or 5b (close to 6A!)

Post by lucky1 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:22 pm

Nice looking Trachy, Kent.
Not a mark on it from last winter...without lights.

The caretaker's probably wondering why you're tying down your garbage...

Barb
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If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.

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hardyjim
Palm Grove
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Fairfield Iowa 5b

Post by hardyjim » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:38 pm

You guys are cracking me up!
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DesertZone
Palm Grove
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Location: South Central Idaho 5b
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Post by DesertZone » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:39 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Shoshone Idaho weather
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Here's to all the global warming pushers, may your winters be -30 below and four feet of snow in your driveway. Because I want you happy.
-Aaron-

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