PalmsNorth.com

Cameron, during your mammoth germination project, I can't remember if you germinated Jubaea chilensis.
I've ordered a small, pricey pack of the blue form.

http://www.palmsnorth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4040

Thanks...busy time of year I know but looking forward to your update.

Barb

I wonder how D. wheeleri will do outdoors for you Barb? They can take some cold when dry in winter and your dry. I tried a 5 gal outside here in Mass. and it died....probably from our excess winter moisture. Who's growing them in the cold/dry areas? How much cold can they take?? Who's killed them in dry conditions?

PS, you got a load of seedlings. They appear to be searching for sun. Mine had much shorter leaves (first row of plants at the bottom of photo).
<img src=http://www.bennyskaktus.dk/images/other ... Tim_02.JPG>

After a 48 hour soak, looks like water's softening the seedcoat.

Will add more hydrogen peroxide to the water to get rid of fungus.
Soaking beside woodstove in basement, temp approx. 85 F

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6582595723/" title="DSC05192 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6582 ... 74c3_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05192"></a>


Next, a few P.dactylifera:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6582595713/" title="DSC05194 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6582 ... 9c91_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05194"></a>

There's nothing like signs of new life for the New Year!


Barb

Nice work, Barb!

I had previously been pretty reluctant to talk about my Jubaea seeds, because they were actually my biggest failure

As you've seen earlier in the post, I was able to successfully de-lid the seeds, and have around 90% of them germinate within a couple of days. Unfortunately, I didn't take enough measures to keep the de-lidded seeds in a sterile environment (that's the main problem when de-lidding seeds; although they will readily germinate, they generally aren't as strong as seeds that germinate naturally). Although I sterilized the soil with boiling water, air was still passing over the seeds, and this allowed mold to take over. The end result was that every Jubaea seedling died. I had de-lidded seeds of other species, and none of these had the same problems that the Jubaeas did. I guess Jubaeas must just be more sensitive to the environment compared to the rest. Luckily, I do still have some seeds to try germinating again

Barb, I would recommend that you crack the outer shell of the seeds (but be careful). Also, keep them in a well-draining mix, with high temps for the bottom heat.

Barb awesome job!!!

Cameron they were my biggest failure too! Still have 5 seeds in soil, still waiting.

Paul

TimMAz6 wrote:I wonder how D. wheeleri will do outdoors for you Barb? They can take some cold when dry in winter and your dry. I tried a 5 gal outside here in Mass. and it died....probably from our excess winter moisture. Who's growing them in the cold/dry areas? How much cold can they take?? Who's killed them in dry conditions?

PS, you got a load of seedlings. They appear to be searching for sun. Mine had much shorter leaves (first row of plants at the bottom of photo).

Mine have long skinny leaves maybe not as long. Could be to much fertilizer?
I have tried a few in the past, but they were very small plants and died. I have seen bigger ones make it through the winter in Boise ID (6b) I got the seeds by my place in AZ. They had no damage after 0f so only time will tell. I have heard from a few people that if the crown stays very dry they do well? If you want some I still have some. Very easy to sprout.

Tim,

you got a load of seedlings. They appear to be searching for sun

Yes, I started the Dasylirion wheeleri in a community pot in the darkish basement under that red/blue light thingy so they did stretch.
On sunny days I put the pot outside, even forgetting to bring it in when it was cold

I do hope they'll make it in my dry winter/summer conditions.
If they like heat, which Aaron agrees they do, this is the right place as long as winter doesn't kill them once planted out.
Wonder when to separate them from their community pot and place them into individual pots (and for how long before planting out?)

Tim, your planting bed is fabulous!!!! Love the blue colors!
Looks like beach sand?

Cameron,
Ah, I recall reading about the boiling water (but thought that was so successful).
Sorry Cameron I thought they were alive!

air was still passing over the seeds, and this allowed mold to take over.

So with your next Jubaea seeds, will you bury them in the sterile soil to eliminate air?
Did you use hydrogen peroxide at all? If so, what ratio to water do you suggest?

recommend that you crack the outer shell of the seeds (but be careful).

Isn't it too late to crack them? now that they're so soft and hopefully breaking apart?

Thanks Cameron, will try to keep bottom heat at a good level of about 85 F (thank you woodstove!).
Will be interested in your next batch, hopefully with pics.

Aaron,

Mine have have long skinny leaves maybe not as long

Yours are probably in better light.
Mine are having trouble standing up, flopping over halfway, but still alive.

Barb

Barb, I think that the soil was sterile to begin with, but I both kept it too moist, and didn't have a cover on the container. This is what allowed the mold to start, and then take over so quickly. For the next ones, I will keep the soil less moist, and have a lid on the germinating container. I didn't use any hydrogen peroxide.

I don't think it's too late to crack the seeds; I did plant one seed (with the shell intact), and it has not even broken apart yet. They are very tough, and I think that it will take quite a bit of time for any water to soak through the outer shell and prompt germination. You might want to try cracking the shells on only one or two seeds, and at least have these two available to compare to the rest.

both kept it too moist, and didn't have a cover on the container.

Cameron, in my limited germination experience, I've had more mold on stuff that was covered than uncovered.
Perhaps drainage and airflow are the trick?

BTW, my 4 seeds of Jubaea pic (above)...I'm an idiot.
All that "stuff" was just, well, stuff, almost like leftover pulp but I didn't notice anything on the seeds before that.
It scratched off with my fingernail and definitely was NOT a radicle starting

So I got out a framing hammer (drumroll) and started flailing away at the seed on the concrete floor.
Takes a bit of getting used to.
The first seed I ruined by hitting it too hard.
Pieces of it are all over the basement, couldn't find half of them.

The next few were easier, one really sharp rap (inside a cardboard box so I could find pieces again).
Then I lightly sandpapered where your pic indicated (on page 3 of this topic) and plopped them into expanded peat pots, then into clay pots.

You're right, that outer coat is really really strong, and I doubt water would have permeated that for a long long time.
Probably takes outdoor fungi/insect action in the ground to "work at the seedcoat".

Thanks!
Barb

Haven't a clue how to do these, so trying a bit of everything:

Expanded peat pellets on top of fast-draining soil in small clay pots:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6598206931/" title="DSC05198 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6598 ... ba73_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05198"></a>

Pushed the seeds in:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6598206961/" title="DSC05199 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7169/6598 ... 3b96_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05199"></a>

Covered with sand:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6598206967/" title="DSC05200 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6598 ... 9e64_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05200"></a>

And placed individual baggies over the top.
On warm concrete floor beside basement woodstove.

The waiting begins.

Barb

New seeds:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6598292863/" title="DSC05210 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7171/6598 ... b1b6_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05210"></a>

Cleaning: strawy husk came off easily with a knife.
Then dropped into bowl of water 1 part hydrogen peroxide 3%, 5 parts water.
They all sank right away

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6598292879/" title="DSC05212 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7171/6598 ... 883a_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05212"></a>

More waiting.

Barb

Barb, I think that in order to keep the seeds as sterile as possible, I will try a combination of drainage and no airflow. Great work with the Jubaea seeds, as well as the others! It will be interesting to see how the (African?) oil palm seeds do.

Drumroll.....ta da!

Veitchia (Christmas palm) seed from John's trip to Mexico.

This one I sanded very very lightly (just to thin the hard outer coat, not to get into the white part at all).
Placed near woodstove in the hot basement +85F.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6674829523/" title="DSC05287 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6674 ... 5b82_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC05287"></a>

Germinated in one of those little expandable peat thingies, regular potting mix in the rest of pot, top dressed with sand in an effort to keep fungus gnat population down to a dull roar.

Barb

Barb congrats. What part of the seed did you sand? I`m sending out some of these tomorrow so it could help others and myself with quicker germination.


John

What part of the seed did you sand

I didn't know which part to sand, so I just did a gentle sanding (3 or 4 strokes) in the middle (like a Trachy or Waggie seed), not at either tip.
'coz I wasn't sure where the embryo was on these.

Here's my theory:
Sanding (lightly) ANYWHERE on the seed speeds nature's process of allowing water inside the hard coat.
That starts stuff happening inside, for lack of a more technical term.
I'm convinced the embryo will find a way out, nature will look after that.

In nature, when a seed drops from a tree and warm wet soil "works" on the hard seed coat, seeds pop despite some landing in awkward arrangements (sideways, on their points, or laying on top of other seeds?)

Nobody's around to "orient" and soften the seed coat in the "correct" area.

Definitely an amateurish answer, but that's all I can offer other than to say I always lay the seed horizontally on the soil about halfway into the soil (2 points just barely showing).

BTW, I'd be worried about seed exposure to our current cold temps in the mailboxes...I think tropical seeds should NEVER freeze.

Still waiting for the Jubaea chilensis to pop, BUT:

Here come the rest of the (unsanded) Christmas palms .

Had to gently cut away the fibrous material in which peat pots are wrapped.
It's bending the first growth sideways

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6726921993/" title="DSC05298 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7017/6726 ... 9a6c_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC05298"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6726921971/" title="DSC05301 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6726 ... 1d12_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC05301"></a>

Hopefully they straighten up with the material cut away:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6726921951/" title="DSC05299 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6726 ... ac97_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC05299"></a>

and a shot of my germinating area next to the woodstove in the messy basement (thank God for concrete floor).
It's the only place to be when it's this cold outside...may move my computer down there

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6726921941/" title="DSC05303 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7016/6726 ... 67eb_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="DSC05303"></a>

Barb

Nice work, Barb!! Hopefully it won't be more than a couple of months for the Jubaeas, compared to a couple of years!

Thanks Cameron...heard Jubaeas can take 18 months
They'll be in the compost by then...

Barb

Here are a couple of new pics:

Sabal minor "McCurtain", around 4 inches tall:


Cherimoya, around 5 inches tall:


N. ritchiana var. "Kashmir", around 1 foot tall:


Keraji mandarin (Citrus reticulata), Changsha mandarin (C. reticulata), and Citrus taiwanica:


Cameron.

great photos people of some interesting plants.

Aaron, keep us posted on the hardiness of D. wheeleri. 0F is a nice test.

Barb, the soil with all those seedlings was native Pawtucket, RI soil. A sandy loam. Most soils in our area are sand based due to the glaciers. You can't find clay around here.

Holy cow, Cameron, nice growth.

Your nannorhops ritchiana are so healthy...mine (that I got from you) are still just thin tall skinny things, haven't grown a leaf yet like yours.
So I'm doing something wrong, probably too cold in the barely-heated building.
Only one left, others are crunchy.

Nice sabal mccurtain too.
My sabal bermudiana seeds from John aren't doing anything yet.
Read somewhere that sabals are slow to pop but I'm keeping them warm.

Barb

Thanks, Barb!

That's too bad to hear about the loss of your N. ritchiana. I am sure that they will love the summer heat that the Okanagan can provide!

Cameron.

Start agaves germination on the February first. Have 200 seeds germinating, have only 6 germs. How long should be waiting until skip?

Hey Igor,

How much bottom heat are the seeds receiving?

30&#1057; during the day plus phytho light (12 hours) and 20C in the night time.

That should be enough for sufficient germination! The only other thing I could suggest would be a constant high temp for day/night.

Thanks, Cameron! That's what I'm gonna do for Yucca seeds germination.

My first attempt at sowing some palm seeds. Thanks to Barb, and her advice to me as well. Growing these in a portable green house with electric heat mats/germination houses. South facing window.

Top Shelf 6 Foxtail's and Christmas palms.

2nd shelf 30 California Fan Palms in cells, and 12 Date palm seeds soaking still in the Navy cup to be planted later today.

Still waiting on Mexican Fan Palm seeds sometime this week, or next.

You're on your way, Scott...

Maybe stick a thermometer in there so you know when/if temps are good.

I found with my GH that the bottom rack of seeds kept heat from rising evenly to the top rack (when heat source is way at the bottom).
But raising the heat source makes the bottom row colder.
Staggering the trays a bit allows heat to rise evenly.

Those are all warmth-loving seeds (versus Trachies), 85F would be good, but hard to achieve.

Barb

Nice work, Scott. I actually have the same mini greenhouse I ended up removing the plastic from the outside of mine, because I found that often, the humidity would condense and end up dripping on my wood flooring

just noticed that myself(well wife did) and now has rug totally under green house and in front.


Anxious to see how it works. I have a outside green house as well, but temps are all over the map still so for now, just storing some potted palms.

Germination Update:

Jubaea ... puhlease tell me this little knob means something's happening.
Hard on patience....
Click on pics to enlarge.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6897682597/" title="007 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/6897 ... a612_m.jpg" width="240" height="180" alt="007"></a>

Phoenix dactylifera "Deglet Noor" sure grow fast, tall one is already 7 inches, much faster than "Medjool", which are also up.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6897682567/" title="005 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7180/6897 ... a3fa_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="005"></a>

Veitchia (Christmas palms). All the seeds except one have come up (from John's Mexico trip)

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6897682533/" title="004 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7206/6897 ... 0321_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="004"></a>

More Veitchia:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6897682481/" title="001 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7202/6897 ... 6e66_m.jpg" width="240" height="180" alt="001"></a>

Pomegranate seedlings are up too:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6897682521/" title="003 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7205/6897 ... 7928_m.jpg" width="240" height="180" alt="003"></a>

Barb

Great work!! It's hard to tell if that Jubaea is germinated, can you take a closer shot?

Hey Cameron,

here's a couple shots of some other seedlings from you! Taken today.

<img src=http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/ ... G_1537.jpg>

<img src=http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/ ... G_1538.jpg>

Fantastic job, Tim!!! Both of those species should eventually be hardy enough to be planted outside!

Hopefully these plants will grow a little faster..........I wonder how large they will be after this season??

hard to tell if that Jubaea is germinated, can you take a closer shot?

My dinky little camera doesn't do macros well, this is closest.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6903767015/" title="008 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7191/6903 ... cf1c_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="008"></a>

Blasted with spray bottle first, and bumps didn't move like the sand did, so I hope something's happening.

Compared to the others, which are not showing anything at all.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6903767093/" title="011 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7062/6903 ... 8683_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="011"></a>

I also read recently that the trick with Jubaea germination is to let seeds dry out to the rattling stage, THEN rehydrate them.
Can't find the link again
Anybody else heard that?

Barb

Hi Barb,

Here's a link to one method. It appears they remove the inner seed from the outer shell.

http://www.palmsociety.org/public/engli ... 21_1.shtml

another link Barb..................I hope you got some time!

http://www.banana-tree.com/Product/JUBA ... 96-590.htm