Pindo palm frond damage today -- mystery

[TerdalFarm]

I showed off my "pindo palm bigger than a horse" last week.
I'm still proud of it (even if it was merely bigger than a mini).
Late this afternoon something happened to it that baffles me.
Here is a photo:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QZ ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TIWAv ... AG0201.jpg" /></a>

It is from nearly the same location as the pony photo. What I am baffled about are the four fronds on the left that are bent at the petiole base.

The leading hypothesis I have is that the strong winds we had from the South (= from the right in this photo). They were sustained and strong (~30 mph all day). However, these fronds have dealt with worse. And as the Musa basjoo in the background shows, they were nothing my plants can't deal with. If Musa can handle the wind, why can't Butia?

Other hypotheses:
Animals. Nope. No goats or horses. Dogs and chickens spent the day avoiding the sun, heat and wind.
Fungus. No sign of that I could see. They all look healthy. The spear (also bent) is firm when tugged.

Any ideas?
--Erik

[gpenny]

I've never seen anything in my 40 years of growing them like that! My pindos have experienced the fringes of Hugo (80-90 mph) with no damage. I have had squirrels do some freaky things in my yard. Any evidence of chew marks?

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks for the experienced reply.
No signs of chew marks. Also, my dogs keep squirrels far away.
There is no distinct crease in the petiole base, which is what I usually find after animal damage to small palms (e.g., the small new Sabal minor has already lost a frond to dog damage).
I sprayed a bit of copper fungicide just in case it is disease. We have TS Hermine coming so I want to make a recovery plan before then.
--Erik

[hardyjim]

I am not sure I get what you are saying here.

Is it that your Butia fronds are bent one way now?

We had similar winds out of the south the past few days and it seems
like the bases of the leaves could have just been bent by having constant stress on them.

Nothing a strong North wind couldn't straighten out,ehh?-or are they sheltered on that side?

[TerdalFarm]

Jim,
the six new fronds are leaning to the left in the photo (north). I can lift them up, but then they just lay down again. So, I doubt a sustained north wind would "fix" them.
Is it possible they grew so fast that they didn't make enough lignin to hold themselves up? If so, I'll just let them lie and hope for slower growth next year.
On the bright side, my palm hut won't have to be as tall as I planned. Just wider. --Erik

[JackLord]

Hmmm....interesting. My guess, and that's all it is, is that either a deer or some wayward drunk trampled it.

[TerdalFarm]

No deer--dogs keep them far away.
I'm the only wayward drunk and it wasn't me!
Is there any "weak petiole disease" you know of?
They are not soft to the touch, like mushy plant tissue I am familiar with. It just seems like they got too heavy and lay down, but they did it all at once (well, in a 30 minute period when I was indoors watching the news). I'm really baffled. --Erik

[TerdalFarm]

OK, what about phytophora/bud rot? Could I have been over-watering and promoted fungal growth?

http://palm_doctor.homestead.com/palm5.html

--Erik

[hardyjim]

Any little buggies chewing away between the petiole and trunk?

[TerdalFarm]

Not that I can see, and I've been looking.
So, of my 3 original hypotheses--wind, animals and disease--I am thinking disease.
Wind? Well, it wasn't that bad. Musa wasn't tattered. The brand new Sabal who have never been outdoors could take it.
Animals? Big animals would have creased petioles. Little ones would have nibbled.
Also, I have been watching it like a hawk and it is steadily if slowly getting worse. I would have noticed animals. Plus there is not wind. Hence, disease. By default.
I had some left over copper fungicide from last Spring I had found to spray on that yellowing Sago, so I sprayed a bunch in the crown and petiole bases there this morning. Can't hurt, right?
Any more suggestions?
--Erik

[lucky1]

Erik, I shouldn't even chime in here 'coz mine died this year but I know how much that palm means to you.

My butia's decline began in the house late winter, the color of fronds got lighter and they hung down as though too tired to stand up.
The collapse continued until all fronds except the central leader were touching the floor.

Root fungus, but too small an application of fungicide obviously wasn't enough and it died by spring.

I recall John mentioning that he thoroughly soaks the palm and soil with the fungicide, as it's possibly a root fungus.

I'm hoping it's just taking a break after all your heat.
That would be good.

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
thanks. What you are describing sounds similar to what mine is doing.
Does the hydrogen peroxide trick work for in-ground palms?
It saved W's Washy....
--Erik

[lucky1]

But Erik, only one side of yours are drooping, probably from wind.
Unless frond color is fading quickly, I wouldn't worry.

Fungicide never hurts (so people say), and copper seems to be the preferred choice.
But hydrogen peroxide, I believe, can be used more safely as a soil soak, as John had advised earlier.
I can't see why hydrogen peroxide wouldn't work as well on in-ground-as container-palms.

I hope you're worries are unfounded.
Barb

[BILL MA]

Sorry for being so late on this. A soil issue has to be the problem, do you have fungus around the tops of any of your plants? I'm betting root rot is your problem. The soil must be holding water some how. Just a guess but most likely the cause. I'd treat the soil and stop watering or dig it up.

Sorry Erik, I hope you can fix this before winter.

Bill

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Erik I am inclined to agree with Bill. You have an issue with your roots and possible rot. I don`t recall my 2 Butia.capitata`s with spear pull exibiting any twist in the petioles or fronds . The palm is telling you something bad is happening deep root level. Do something now IMO. "YES" you can treat your B.capitata roots with hydrogen peroxide now and wait for better results. "No guarantee". A large palm like yours will have roots reaching deep possibly 5 ft" or more by now and will need a dose of 3% diluted "hydrogen peroxide" to reach down to what could be ground water?It could be possible other ground contamination is the culprit. You are doing it a favor by giving it O2 for the lateral roots and deeper tap roots. I would suggest a treatment of "3%" H.P. 5 cups per 5 gal.Pour it slowly on the soil surface around Butia once per week and water the next day to force the H.P down to see any if the older petioles-fronds improve or new crown growth gets better!http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/ ... oxide.html




John

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, folks. Your advice is alll that kept this palm (my favorite from 2009) alive last winter. Maybe you can do it again?
Here is a photo of it this morning. I put that same pink bucket in place for comparison with the "pindo palm bigger than a horse" photo from last month, when it was at its peak.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/K1 ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TIjoG ... AG0205.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ite">Palms 2010</a></td></tr></table>


I'd like to say this is damage from TD Hermine, but I can't. It looked like this last evening before it came through overnight. We got 3" of rain and wind, but not bad wind. You can see that that Musa basjoo in the background came through all right--just one broken leaf.

So, I am convinced I have a rapidly progressing disease.

Replies to you helpful folks:
Barb, no major discoloring, but perhaps slight yellowing of fronds and petioles. The spear (also floppy) is quite yellow.
Bill, thanks a lot for that "stop watering" advice in the middle of a TS!
Just kidding.
As for fungus, yes, there are several "mushrooms" in that bed (my pinnate palm bed). As for soil, my soil overall is very organic. I did a traditional double-dig in that bed a few years ago (before planting even the Washingtonia that used to be there) and added a lot of composted manure (never in short supply here). Water never stands on the ground here, no matter how much it rains (plus it is sloped) but I am sure all that organic matter retains water well.
John, I'll do a first H2O2 drench this morning before heading to the office. The ground is soaked from all the rain last night but that can't be helped.
I also sprayed more of that copper fungicide on the spear/crown, again assuming it can't hurt, right?
--Erik

[hardyjim]

I don't know what to say about that Erik but it does seem- as the guys mentioned- there is some
root issue going on there.

Mine did not grow much coming out of winter and my guess is also root damage but luckily it has regrouped
and is making a big push now


Does the overall health of the palm seem to be in decline?

If you feel it is,I would advise digging it up and cleaning all the soil off,
removing any rot of dead roots and re-potting after treatment.

It seems odd that it would grow so much and now be in trouble,make sure it is in decline before you dig it up-
if it is a root issue,it will not make it through the winter.

I am going to keep mine drier/heavily mulched this year,although the foliage seemed to
be well protected it was not insulated very far beyond the trunk.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if the moisture and HOT soil temps contributed to this?



I don't think we will see much from Hermine here,looks to be shunted to the south and east-
next cold front(Thurs-Fri) may be a different story though.



I am going to try and keep my palms and cactus drier going into winter this year-

Good luck Erik

[JackLord]

There was some fungus on the ground near my Pindo during late Spring/early Summer. I figured that perhaps I was watering too much- overcompensating for the early heat. I read that they are fairly drought tolerant, so I largely left it alone and let it live off of rain. It has done fine, and like Jim's, has seen a huge push lately. Brightened my mood as, you might recall, it took a beating during winter.

I would try the peroxide treatment. Digging it up is problematic and let's face it, economies of scale (i.e. Big Box Stores) have made these trees cheap.

[hardyjim]

I agree Jack but he may want to save it - if he needs to- it may be ready for another stint next spring

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, guys.
Jack,
I probably did over water it in the heat of August. My excuse is that is in a bed with three Chamaadorea radicalis I want to try to over winter in the ground. Their roots aren't so deep. Plus, I read they like some afternoon shade so I planted a new Musa basjoo and wanted it to grow fast. The Musa and Chammies have done well (as did the Butia) but perhaps the excess water soaked down to the lower roots of the older Butia. Just speculation.
As for replacement, I have thought about it. This one was US$125 in a 15 gallon pot from HD in April, 2009. However, it doubled in size. Realistically, a replacement would set me back where I was 15 months ago.
Jim,
I actually had not though of just digging it up. I don't know why. I did that with a sick, yellowing Sago. This would be a similar operation, just a lot harder. I could dig it up, rinse the roots with a hose, cut off obviously sick ones, spray the rest with copper, and pot it with sterile soiless palm mix in a humongous pot and put it in the "ball room" for the winter. A lot of work, but perhaps easier than finding/buying/bringing home a 30 gallon Butia. Which I would have to drive to Texas to get.
I'll think about it. For the next month, I'll do the treatment Dr. John prescribed above. That is cheap and easy.
Any more input from anyone?
--Erik

[lucky1]

Erik, I could cry ...

Did you say this is in the same spot as last year's Washy? the one that died from winter, right?
or something else?

The light blue colour of my Butia fading was my first indicator, the next day frond droop.

I think your soil is too rich.
Until manure is well rotted (several years) it'll be subject to all the decomposition fungi that are needed to break it down.
Also your chickens were free range, some of that surface fresh poop could have gotten into the planting hole.

If I ever find another butia, it's going into gravel, no soil.

Barb

[lucky1]

Erik, if you're planning to think about it and then dig it up to spend winter in the ballroom, W has a nice tractor.
Bet she has tractor straps (wrap around a sleeping bag tied around the palm's base) that can gently lift it up out of its hole and plunk it into its new big pot.
She'll probably help dig it out of the ground too!

Thinking back to watering, many of us encouraged you to water like crazy when temps were 100+.
The soil in your palm pictures looked crunchy dry.

It's a beautiful Butia, worth the effort.
Barb

[lucky1]

Found this "Diseases in Pindo Palms"

http://www.ehow.com/list_5970471_diseas ... trees.html

Will look for your photo of it tomorrow, Erik.
Good luck.
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
great link--I had not found that one, despite hours of searching.
That first disease, fungal root rot, is what I fear I have. I really don't want it to spread to the nearby Chamaedorea (x3) I planted nearby (so they would all fit in a shared palm hut).
I guess I have some more research and some hard thinking to do.
Thanks for the emotional support too. I'm glad I have all those Sabal to lean on....
BTW, W's tractor can't get to that spot in the garden, but she liked that you thought of her!
--Erik

[lucky1]

Sounds like it unfortunately.
From the numerous websites I saw researching Pindo disease, just about all of them blamed the nursery...

I know how you love Butia...me too.
Barb

[JackLord]

I agree Jack but he may want to save it - if he needs to- it may be ready for another stint next spring

You may well be right. I am just hesistant to dig ones up that are established or semi-established. I transplanted 3 Trachys. They were out of the ground for an hour or so and yet took a year to recover from the shock of being dug up and moved a few miles. Granted they were probably in the ground longer than his Butia.

[hardyjim]

Yea,that appears to be an issue with Butia,they may take a while to establish.

I think some palms are better at handling cold wet roots but both together is hard on any palm
especially Washys and Butias-Barb may be on to something too,soil issues etc.

In any case/cause- if this is a root issue- now is a bad time to be trying to fix it,if this thing shows any signs
of vigor maybe there's a chance......


If you are of a mind that you are dead set about leaving it in and taking your chances,some kind of
peroxide dump/treatment seems to be the best plan,my concern would be that the main issue is with the roots
DIRECTLY under the palm and a surface treatment may not address this adequately.

If you do decide to try it my suggestion would be to do it and not water it at all until next spring
when soil temps are well into the 60s over a foot down.

If it keeps declining,I think you need to dig it up -
sooner than later.


Get some close up pics of the crown and the leaf blades,are they all closed up or open?

[hilashes]

Erik, I'm so sorry to hear about your beautiful Butia - I empathize! When my Trachy was having problems coming out of the winter this year I was devastated. Thank goodness it's okay, but I know the struggle you must be facing! I hope that whatever you decide to do, you can find a new spot for it after it's initial recovery and it will continue to be its beautiful Butia self!


Heidi

[TerdalFarm]

Heidi,
thanks for the sympathy. We do get attached to favorites.
I'm going to try to save it in the ground a while longer while the weather here stays so good--it is staying warm (but not hot), windy and no rain in the forecast (big storms last night broke up just north of here).
I'm off to buy a bunch of hydrogen peroxide; my wife told me of a store that sells it cheap. I'll pick up some chemical fungicides as well from the home improvement store.
I am happy to say that the Butia isn't getting any worse. After such a fast decline last week, that is some consolation.
--Erik

[lucky1]

that is some consolation

Might be a good sign, too...

[TerdalFarm]

Hope so.
Again, a great weather forecast for the coming week.
Now, off to get those chemicals....
--Erik

[hilashes]

that is some consolation

Might be a good sign, too...

I agree with Barb!

[hilashes]

I am going to try and keep my palms and cactus drier going into winter this year-

That is my plan too Jim, but when do you think is a good time to start before frost? (In terms of weeks). Does that mean drier in the crown or around the soil? I'm planning to cover my palms with an over-head clear fiberglass sheet, attached to 4 posts. As long as I can keep the moisture out of the crown, I can still water the soil before frost....does that make sense? (I've just heard the tree is supposed to be watered well before frost).


Thanks!
Heidi

[TerdalFarm]

Heidi,
thanks for your support.
The weather here is so perfect right now it is difficult to think of "winter." I sat outside drinking wine under the palms this evening until it got dark.
About the pindo palm, yesterday I did the peroxide treatment Dr. John prescribed. Don't know how long it will take to see any results. This same treatment (thanks, John!) saved W's large potted Washy. It took a few weeks to notice the results. So, I'd like to think that in a few weeks I'll see new spear growth and so know it is "saved."
If I don't, it will be hard (thanks, Jack--seriously) to justify making a heated palm hut for it. That is the "deadline" I am setting for this pindo. Protecting "just" the three Chamaedorea radicalis planted in that bed last April will be hard enough that I don't want to make W worry about nursing a sick Butia at the same time.
(Yes, you read between the lines correctly: I'll be sitting under Cocos nucifera while W keeps my palms alive during the coldest part of winter. Again. No idea why she hasn't shown me the door. Got to love her! )
--Erik

[hardyjim]

I am going to try and keep my palms and cactus drier going into winter this year-

That is my plan too Jim, but when do you think is a good time to start before frost? (In terms of weeks). Does that mean drier in the crown or around the soil? I'm planning to cover my palms with an over-head clear fiberglass sheet, attached to 4 posts. As long as I can keep the moisture out of the crown, I can still water the soil before frost....does that make sense? (I've just heard the tree is supposed to be watered well before frost).


Thanks!
Heidi

Heidi

I believe John,in Colorado-the pioneer in the whole keep them dry strategy-wrote that this begins after the first frost.

I don't know when it gets cold there but I use Oct 1st as my date for the Cactus-probably should be Sept 1
with how rainy the summer/fall has been here/or Aug 1 for that matter but I just can't bring myself to put the frame work up any earlier!

I use a rain shield that goes over the cactus(I just put the frame up and roll a plastic tarp over it)for the early part
of the fall/winter season-it gets completely covered when the temps are headed below 15F.

I have 20 other palms outside of the Cactus cover,I think I will try harder to cover them this year.

I will just use a plastic cover(only when it rains like what you said) for the Washys as they are the biggest-
until it's time to cover them for winter.

If I can do this early I would like to uncover the Trachys and Sabals earlier this coming spring
(late Feb/early March,weather permitting) as they are fully hardened off by Jan.


Cutting back on the water/early cold weather is what hardens off the palms growth so
it is more cold tolerant-a little problematic with 20 palms but hopefully I will be more motivated to do it this year
since I already have all my supplies on hand........for a change!




P.S.

Oops,yea the crown and the roots,when the tissue is still soft from fast growth the crowns are more tender so,
freezing water in there is no good



Hope this helps-good luck Heidi

[hilashes]

The weather here is so perfect right now it is difficult to think of "winter." I sat outside drinking wine under the palms this evening until it got dark.

Erik- Gotta love an extended summer, way to go! Can you send some our way?! Our summer seemed to fizzle pretty quick. Lately we've had below normal temps with drizzly rain - pretty miserable actually. Which brings me to the reason I think of protection so early, it's a sad reminder about our cool wet winters.

Regarding the Pindo palm, it will be interesting to see how the peroxide works. Hopefully you will see a nice new spear in a couple of weeks. Eager to hear about it!

laughing about W looking after the palms in coldest winter - I understand! I'm sure my H is passed the point of done hearing about my beloved palms, and now this year is forced to build them little shelters.... but still chooses to keep me around !

Cutting back on the water/early cold weather is what hardens off the palms growth so
it is more cold tolerant-a little problematic with 20 palms but hopefully I will be more motivated to do it this year
since I already have all my supplies on hand........for a change!

P.S.

Oops,yea the crown and the roots,when the tissue is still soft from fast growth the crowns are more tender so,
freezing water in there is no good

Jim - I understand completely, I too have my supplies on hand for once! or should I say, the "right" method this time (I hope). The crown and roots freezing with water is what my biggest concern is, so I'll start keeping it dry mid October perhaps, as our first frost is usually first or second week of Nov.

Your advice is greatly appreciated, thanks again Jim, you're always very helpful!

Heidi

[hardyjim]

[TerdalFarm]

I have the evening free unexpectedly and so decided to update some of my old threads.

Butia: not good. Here is a photo from this evening:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MB ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TJ06s ... AG0240.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... e">Outdoor palms</a></td></tr></table>

I have been doing the peroxide Rx from Dr. John. However, the roots are very deep, and we are getting enough rain to keep the ground wet. Soil temps are still warm (~75 oF). I am sure soil fungus are loving it.
The spear does not pull, and some of the upper fronds (esp. on the right) are still green, but the trend is downward. I am making winter plans that leave this one out.
--Erik[url][/url]

[lucky1]

Darn it, Erik!

Mine collapsed so quickly I initially thought it was wilting from lack of water.
The addition of water moved its demise along very quickly.

Yours is struggling, and it pains me to see that.
But with green frond(s), there remains some--albeit small--hope.

Nowhere I've looked on the internet discusses this problem with Butia, and I've easily read a hundred sites.

It probably wouldn't hurt at this point to double, or triple, the hydrogen peroxide.
Barb

[BILL MA]

This is a real shame to see Erik. That palms was really growing so nicely for you too.

What happened to digging it up, I thought that's what you where planning to do when it first happened? I haven't really been around to much to read any posts so maybe I missed you saying you where leaving it in. It might not be to late if you get to it soon. Dig down on one side of it and see if you see/smell anything unusual. If you still have the palmetto pot you could plant it in that with fresh soil after treating the roots once it's out. Cutting a lot of the fronds off will help with transplant shock to.

You could always just buy another one in the spring time, not the same I know but it might help a little.

Sorry man, I wish you didn't have to deal with this!

Bill