PalmsNorth.com

I removed the Tesan because it wasn't moving,I am willing to wait on the other Fortxwag.

The good news is that 3 of 5 have come back including the Trachy that saw -2f (pulled late)this past winter.

I would say generally speaking that any healthy palm that NEEDS this procedure(it is a last resort)should recover rather quickly,if it's going to.
This is important this far north as a speedy recovery is key for replacing lost foliage before winter.

This is why I opted to remove the Tesan(not moving)and I got a nice little C.cerifera to put in it's place-
Space is at a premium and time is of thee essence!

Blah,blah,blah- the pictures


After initial cut a few weeks ago.)-:

T.fortunei

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T.FortxWag


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LITTLE LESS THAN A WEEK LATER-

T.fortunei

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T.FortxWag

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CURRENT(AS OF A FEW DAYS AGO)including other Trachy that was trunk cut-

T.fortunei-



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FortxWag-

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"OTHER" T.FORT-



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HERE ARE 2 OTHER T.FORTS THAT SPEAR-PULLED IN LATE JAN-
NEITHER WERE HEATED AND SAW AT LEAST -12,THESE WERE COVERED WITH STYROFOAM CONTAINERS.
I CUT THEM DOWN TO THE GROUND AROUND MARCH 20,THEY HAVE BOTH REGROWN THEIR SPEARS,ETC-INCREDIBLE!

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10015.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10015.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10017.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10017.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>





Thanks for looking-

Jim
those T.Forts that saw -12 w no heat, cut to the ground. Both regrowing is wonderful.
Congrats.
You deserve it!
Barb

LET THERE BE LIFE!!!!!!

That's really great man. How many fronds do you think by Oct?

Keep up the good work,
Bill

5?

or 0,

really hard to say but it sure would be nice(for starters)to see even 1 open for business.

They're alive! Congrats.

Thanks for sharing. You give us all hope. --Erik

Nice to see Jim! I have a large B.capitata that is going to have a chainsaw cut soon. I hope I have the same results as you.


John

Good luck John-hope it works for you!

To tell true, I'm very impressed that there was no heating.
Last winter was extremal situation, don't believe it will repeat again; if so, the damages could be more severe.
Anyway palms aren't "dye-back perennials"...
Many thanks for sharing, Jim!
A lot of sun ang fine growth!
Antti

Antti

The only palms that were not heated are the last 2 very small ones,as an experiment,
I did not expect then to survive and was not planning on leaving them there
as this is my tree fern area!- but they have earned their spot!

We'll see if they make it through next winter

Jim that is so cool, congrats on the regrowth! I didn't even know that could be done! I learn more everyday.

Heidi

Thanks Heidi

Jim, one of my trachy's had completely defoliated and finally spear pulled today. I had to cut it down to the ground before I hit what looks like live material, and it now looks about the same as yours did when you cut it. It was only planted last year, and only had about 5 inches of trunk, now about 1 inch:) Hopefully it will pull through as yours did.

I've done that with banannas but never with a palm! Don;t know until you try! Congrats!

Jim and others interested- I thought I'd post this in the thread on the subject. I'll try to condense this as it could easily become a book... I did remove the damaged trachy as can be seen in my recent pictures (it is not there). I did learn several things in the process. I contemplated cutting it like Jim did with his damages trees. I should have listened to my gut and just did it back then rather than waiting several weeks. I missed my likely (second) chance to save the tree... I finally did go to cut it. 6" down, rot and loose center bud. Cut down another 6" and it improved slightly but still stunk and was loose. Another 6" down and I'm nearing the end of the heart/bud and it is still somewhat rotten and loose (yellow though). I kind of felt around and it appeared loose still and ended up coming out in my hand. There were only a few inches left of the central (heart as I call it). It was mush at the bottom. This thing's heart rotted out. The rot was spreading down the heart (or up maybe?) during the weeks I was waiting to see if it moved a spear. I cut another 6" down just to see what was there. Then there was less than a foot of trunk left. At this point it was just wood, no heart. No chance of survival at all. Not to mention that the center 6" diameter of "wood" was kind of soft and mostly black. I'm wondering if the rot came from below and traveled up, or it travelled down from the crown. Either way it was a goner. Valuable lesons learned though! It was inconclusive as to if the roots were rotten. I was a bit depressed when i dug it up so I didn't study it too close.

Remember though, this tree was not cold-damaged. Rather the opposite. It was a protection scheme/experiment gone wrong. Forced into drought mode when it dried out mid winter. Feeder roots were too warm and dried out because of the ground heat mistake I made. Also this over-heat in the ground made it try to force up several new spears during the first part of the winter (until it ran out of moisture that is) ground was bone-dry 6+" down and way too warm at the end of winter.

mnpalms wrote:Jim and others interested- I thought I'd post this in the thread on the subject. I'll try to condense this as it could easily become a book... I did remove the damaged trachy as can be seen in my recent pictures (it is not there). I did learn several things in the process. I contemplated cutting it like Jim did with his damages trees. I should have listened to my gut and just did it back then rather than waiting several weeks. I missed my likely (second) chance to save the tree... I finally did go to cut it. 6" down, rot and loose center bud. Cut down another 6" and it improved slightly but still stunk and was loose. Another 6" down and I'm nearing the end of the heart/bud and it is still somewhat rotten and loose (yellow though). I kind of felt around and it appeared loose still and ended up coming out in my hand. There were only a few inches left of the central (heart as I call it). It was mush at the bottom. This thing's heart rotted out. The rot was spreading down the heart (or up maybe?) during the weeks I was waiting to see if it moved a spear. I cut another 6" down just to see what was there. Then there was less than a foot of trunk left. At this point it was just wood, no heart. No chance of survival at all. Not to mention that the center 6" diameter of "wood" was kind of soft and mostly black. I'm wondering if the rot came from below and traveled up, or it travelled down from the crown. Either way it was a goner. Valuable lesons learned though! It was inconclusive as to if the roots were rotten. I was a bit depressed when i dug it up so I didn't study it too close.

Remember though, this tree was not cold-damaged. Rather the opposite. It was a protection scheme/experiment gone wrong. Forced into drought mode when it dried out mid winter. Feeder roots were too warm and dried out because of the ground heat mistake I made. Also this over-heat in the ground made it try to force up several new spears during the first part of the winter (until it ran out of moisture that is) ground was bone-dry 6+" down and way too warm at the end of winter.

You think melting snow water would have made it under the enclosure during the winter months. The snow around my enclosures always stays wet and melting and the ground is always moist in the enclosure. I have a strong suspicion that palms need light in the winter months and cannot be stored in a completely dark/wrapped environment. When you think of arctictropicals boxes, you will see that he has 3 fluorescent bulbs in the box all winter. This provides light with the heat. I don't think wrapping Christmas lights, etc around the fronds constitutes as light in the same way. If you remember last year, a guy by the name of palmmandan in Michigan boxed his trachy up completely and put a space heater set on 45 in the box all winter. No extra light was provided and his trachy dried up and almost succumbed when spring came around. I, on the other hand, provided daily light to my palms in their boxes by removing the foam panels during the day and reinstalling them each night. I used the same space heater idea, provided no supplemental water all winter, and the palm came out looking perfectly green in the spring. But, like I said, if your box is heated, the snow that accumulates around it will melt, seep into the soil and keep the roots sufficiently moist.

I think your palm's main issue is lack of light, and not the overuse of heat. I highly recommend these new palms of yours stay exposed to light during the winter months and you will clearly see they remain much healthier.

The issue with light is not that they have to have it over winter.
I have overwintered a few different palms with out any light at all,in leaf cages,
the trick is they need to be dry and they need to be kept cool/cold,
as close to dormant as possible in the dark.
There are many cases of people overwintering palms with leaf piles etc-successfully.
Temp is an important factor in overwintering,to cold,well you know this.
To hot in conjunction with cold soil temps plants become desiccated.

What happened to Kory's Trachy is that he put heating cable,tape,ropelights-
to lazy to go back and look it up-results were the same.
Placed under a few inches of mulch it heated and dried the top 6" or so
of the soil,basically burned/dried up the feeder roots and dried the palm up-
My guess is with the soil temp cooling down(after removal of protection) and moisture present fungus and
bacterial growth already present rotted the roots, once the temps came up a bit
the process speeded up and took out the root structure and base of the palm.
The palm still had enough carbs stored to react to the warmer weather(spear moving) but
quickly declined as the rot progressed.

Root shock,transplant shock induced spear-pull is really tough to manage because it starts from the bottom up and is rarely treated in time,
give me good old fashioned cold/moisture induced spear-pull every time-just kidding!


Sorry about your Trachy Kory.
I think a system like a Arctictropicals(Kevin's)l,Wxman's(Tim)or one with heavy insulation and
no heat works best,depends on yout climate and your goal.

Thanks for the comments guys. I did have one CFL bulb in the trachy enclosure which was tied to the Thermocube (on at 35f off at 45f) along with Xmas lights. I tried to be a wiseguy and protect it more than others by heating the ground which was my big mistake. My friend in the same area protected his exactly like mine but without the ground heat and it came through looking perfect. The dead trachy did come bare-root, basically without much roots at all. It had spread a mat of feeder roots since its planting in 5/09, I did observe that when I dug up the stump.

I do wish it would have got snow melt water in there but the way the planter is positioned, that's not possible. Keeping the ground so warm did cause the tree to force out several new (mangled because they were tied up inside) fronds/spears. It was like 5 or 6 new ones.

This winter will be a completely different story though. I'll protect them properly and both have full root systems already. My formerly potted one (the 4.5+ footer) has been hardened off and has grown very well since I got it quite a while back. It was a perfect candidate to go into the ground this spring. The big one came from a place that experiences freezing temps frequently during the winter. The lows there at night are still in the low to mid 40s actually. I see it every day on my Accuweather. It's a higher elevation outside Riverside, CA. Thanks again for all your help Jim! Your contributions here and on GW are a huge help to everyone.

And wxman- That yard is looking great!

Not to disagree with Jim, but I've had trachys in the ground for 4 years now, with thermo cubes except the first year.
I think at least in my area, plus others they need to be watered through out the winter. As long as you have a heated
hut you'll need water. Just my 2 cents.

If you plan on giving your palms the real test I'd say keep them dry, that's sub zero with no heat!

Bill

I didn't notice you disagreeing.

What part are you disagreeing with?


Keeping them dry?
I am referring to leaf cages and
palms that will be exposed to cold.
Thermocubes keep them warm enough that moisture wouldn't be
as big an issue as it would be in closely packed protection-
leaf cages,etc.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear,I was trying to keep my post short
didn't happen

Yeah that's what I ment keeping them dry. I always water mine
over the winter with great results. I thought you where refering
to a box type structure with no leaves packed in. I was exhausted
last night as it clearly showed in my post.

Bill

Yea,I water mine too.
I check often with a moisture meter so I don't have to move the (5")
mulch around,mine stayed moist until about February.

Jim, I'm amazed at how fast your trachy fortunei grew after you cut it down... I had to cut mine down to the ground over two weeks ago, and when I checked it out today, it IS growing back, but only had about 1 inch of new growth. Is there anything that you did that I didn't do that I should do to help mine out? It IS coming back, but just very slow... Maybe because mine had only been in the ground for one season?

They probably will be slow until they get some leaves open.

Mine have been in the ground 3-4 years,that helps as they
are well established-besides having no leaves