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Takil vs NaniTal...from Tony Avent of Plant Delights Nursery

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:54 pm
by lucky1
His newsletters are so interesting...he was talking about taxonomic name changes.

One section is about Takil vs ? Trachies...much discussed on PN.

Here's Tony's take:
This brings me to the latest taxonomic snafu.trachycarpus palms. For years, we have grown three primary species: Trachycarpus fortunei, Trachycarpus takil, and Trachycarpus wagnerianus. There have been extensive articles written about Trachycarpus takil and the trek to find the real plant to gather seed (Princeps 37(1) 1993, pp 19-25). Guess what we learned in 2009?
They gathered seed off the wrong plants. It turns out that virtually everything in cultivation and in writings about Trachycarpus takil is actually a form of Trachycarpus fortunei from the Indian town of Nanital, so this plant is now referred to as Trachycarpus fortunei 'Nanital'. Although this represents a name change, it is quite different from the example above because this is simply a correction of an earlier error.


While we're discussing trachycarpus, another problem plant is Trachycarpus wagnerianus. This species was described from a single plant that was being cultivated in Japan and has never been seen or documented in the wild. This is a classic example of poor taxonomy, but was accepted for decades in the past when the opportunity for field studies was more difficult. It is our own and other palm growers contention that this is nothing more than a compact form of Trachycarpus fortunei and therefore, we are changing its name to Trachycarpus fortunei 'Wagnerianus'. This is not something new, having been proposed since 1977 (Principes Vol 21, 1977, pp. 155-160). I hope these examples illustrate the methods behind the name changing madness, and that all name changes aren't created equal.
Barb

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:02 pm
by Barrie
This info is bang on ... dead accurate.

Cheers, Barrie.

Finally

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 pm
by Okanagan desert-palms
At last the final definition of what they are? I don`t care what they call them by as long as they grow here.Thanks for posting that Barb.


John

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:50 pm
by Paul Ont
To add to the jumble, I think that taxonomists (see Sturk, 2005) are going to sink 'Wagnerianus' into fortunei (as you'll see I have done in previous posts, and in my forthcoming article for the EPS) as a varietas. The full name 'should' be (IMO) Trachycarpus fortunei var. Wagnerianus... Or 'waggie' for short! I don't know if this name has been validly published, but I think it should be...

Oh, and, from a molecular phylogenetic standpoint this now means that there is as much difference between Trachycarpus nanus and Trachycaarpus fortunei (1 base-pair in ITS; as there is within fortunei itself (at least 1 bp in ITS)! (Itself being a term for the variaiton found naturally within individuals palms identified as T. fortunei)

Cheers,
Paul

Takil

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:39 pm
by TerdalFarm
I have a T. takil arriving by Fed Ex any day now, to accompany my T. fortunei and my little Waggy out back.
Hmmm...was the vendor trying to unload them? It was sort of a special deal thingy....
Paul,
do you have the full ref. for the molecular systematics work on Trachycarpus? I'm not a molecular biologist but I know enough ti read the tech. papers.

Thanks Guys

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:41 pm
by BILL MA
Great Post Barb!

Takil? Nani-tal? Like john said who cares. The hardiness traits are there for sure. My nanital is for sure a much lighter green then all my other trachys except for my Bulgarians from seed in 2000 from Donovan. The most creeping trait I've ever seen in a trachy in a 7 gallon pot.

Paul thanks for all your information, you'll be one of the palm elites one of these days with all of your studies.
My washies are still not pure robustas though :lol: If you could see them in person you would know they have so filifera blood.
You do know that all filabustas don't always show the hairy trait of filiferas? Any ways there in my yard so they are what they are :D :D :D
Growing back rapidly

Bill

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:45 am
by Paul Ont
Erik- Send me a PM... It's actually a thesis...

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:12 am
by hardyjim
Paul
This information is old news on EPS but they have some of the best threads on Trachycarpus anywhere!
This guy is not saying anything new,Martin Gibbons and Tobias Spanner are mostly to blame for this but it
really wasn't any wrong doing on their part and has been corrected by them.

Naini Tal is a great palm,it has a great look and in general grows faster than Fortunei but I think growth claims
need to be watched carefully as their is much variability between even the same kind of Trachys-the
bottom line is,healthy/happy Trachys grow faster then not so healthy/happy Trachys!

Erik
Where did you buy your alleged Takil?
Most sellers (probably)sell a lot of palms and unless they are really "Trachyheads"they will not be up on this.
There is a seller on E-bay that I wrote several letters to explaining this situation,they told me not to write them anymore,bad attitude
for a nursery,they have since renamed their palms for sale Naini Tal! haha!
Now they turn around and offer a large pot of 18 Takil seedlings for $100!
That would be a steal but they are doing the stealing,they are clearly all 4 ridgers as in Fortunei,etc.
As long as you didn't overpay you have a great Trachy(one of my favorites,o.k. all Trachys are my favorites)
so,no loss.

The general consensus is that true Takils are recognizable by a few different traits.
1.First leaf has 2 ridges on it(so does Princeps,Oreophilus,Nanus,Manipur)all the others are 4 ridgers
2.Trunk fibers are wrapped around the trunk like Martianus and Latisectus(they need to get some size to see this).
3.They grow slow,clearly in contrast to Naini Tal.

These are some of the easiest things to recognize but basically if you don't have confirmation of the first 2 ridger leaf,
you face a "major"challenge identifying accurately and there is the possibility they could be one of the above(also)2 ridgers.

Here is a picture of a true Takil seedling,one caveat,the leaf actually has 3 ridges :shock:
that's because it is upside down,this was verified by it's next leaf which appeared(what looks like)underneath as seen in pic..
1st. pic T.fortunei-tesan 4 ridges-for comparison
2nd.True Takil(upside down 2 ridger)
3rd.Leaf growing out of"underside"reverse curled leaf.
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09003.jpg" border="0" alt="Takil"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -10007.jpg" border="0" alt="Takil 1-15-10"></a>

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:57 am
by Paul Ont
Jim- you know I still don't buy the ridge observations... I do wonder whether we've made this whole genus far more complicated than it really is, ie has enough time past for speciation to occur at the level that some people think it has?

Not to say that the palms NOW being called takil aren't worth growing (whichever is correctly identified, those from Rome or those from India... See Sturk 2006) they certainly are!

Takil

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:33 pm
by TerdalFarm
Paul,
thanks for the source! Ich sprechen keine Deutsch, but I'm doing my best. :lol:
Jim,
the little Trachy "takil' came today from Phil Bergman of "junglemusic" in California. I had an order in with him for female Ch. radicalis to pair with my male (from Cistus, on Sauvie's Island, in case OR is following this thread). He offered to throw into the box a band "takil" for US$30. That seemed a lot as my last two 2 - 3 gallon fortunei have been on sale for US$15, but I've read so much here about "takil" I had to say yes to him.

You all know I have trouble embedding images, but here goes:
[img]<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cT ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S7U_s ... GP1274.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... bsite">New Palms Spring 2010</a></td></tr></table>[/img]

And here is a close-up of the leaves in case the helps the experts here:
[img]<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ds ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S7VAC ... GP1276.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... bsite">New Palms Spring 2010</a></td></tr></table>[/img]

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:20 pm
by hardyjim
No way to tell at this point -but they are so scarce- bet the farm it's not Takil.
Thick(wide) middle leaf at this size is a Naini Tal trait in all that I have seen.
This palm has been grown in low light levels relative to full sun.

Here are pics of every Naini Tal I have had for comparison-
1st pic palm bought as Takil from Collector Palms(2007) on E-bay-
also leggy from "low" light levels.
THIS PALM IS NAINI TAL

Only other palm I have seen with the thick middle leaf is Geminisectus

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... res014.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... res014.jpg" border="0" alt="T.takil"></a>


2ND PIC PALM AFTER ADJUSTING TO FULL SUN
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08020.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08020.jpg" border="0" alt="T.Naini Tal"></a>


SAME PALM LAST YEAR
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09029.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09029.jpg" border="0" alt="T.Naini Tal"></a>

OTHER NAINI TALS

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08025.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08025.jpg" border="0" alt="Takil"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08024.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08024.jpg" border="0" alt="T."takil"-7-17-08"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08018.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08018.jpg" border="0" alt="first takil 8-1-08"></a>
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08029.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08029.jpg" border="0" alt="takil II"></a>

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:30 pm
by TerdalFarm
Jim,
whatever they are, they look fabulous! I hope mine looks so good.
Are there any specific photos I could take on this little thing that would help you guess an I.D.? If so, let me know and I'll share them here.
As for this one, my default plan is to re-pot it and grow it in a pot for a few years, outdoors in the Summer and indoors in the winter. That is what I have done with my little Waggy (if that is what it is?) which I am considering putting in the ground permanently now.

[img]<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8E ... site"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S7VAv ... GP1287.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">ballroom plants 2010</a></td></tr></table>[/img]

--Erik

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:05 pm
by hardyjim
If you use Photobucket you can post bigger pictures.

The chances are pretty low it's Takil,they are very rare.
I think Europalms has had reliable T.takil seeds,if anyone does.
Pictured
Definitely looks like a Waggie!

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:28 am
by lucky1
Yup that's a Waggie, bet my right arm...OK my left one.

Yippeeee, Erik you got pics loaded!
Attaboy.

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:44 pm
by hardyjim
lucky1 wrote:Yup that's a Waggie, bet my right arm...OK my left one.

Yippeeee, Erik you got pics loaded!
Attaboy.






How about both arms,if your wrong we can just call you Bob. :D