hardy trunking yuccas in the Okanagan, and elsewhere,someday

[Cowtown Palm Society]

Although we don't see them yet (large trunking specimens anyway), I don't think there's much doubt that more exotic trunking yuccas (brevifolia, elata, rostrata, fax., etc.) are hardy to the Okanagan region of BC (possibly with minimal protection some winters). I say this based on the evidence around the U.S. (and, of course evidence from those on this forum who already know this-like Aaron (cool brevifolias in zone 5 Idaho), Jay, John and Barb in the Okanagan). I realize the tough part here, is that the nurseries won't bring them in (and if they did they'd probably be less hardy than specimens grown from seed in the Okanagan). Anyhow, here's some interesting links of trunking yuccas pushing their supposed zones.

yucca brevifolia north of Salt Lake City-zone 6:

http://www.bennyskaktus.dk/Johnson.htm

yucca rostrata in zone 5 Denver, Colorado-just scroll down the page a bit too see the rostratas

http://www.botanicgardens.org/content/w ... ming-march

another brevifolia in S.L.C, Utah-zone 6

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/3424598055/

yucca elata in Oroville, Washington (just south of Osoyoos, B.C.)-many of you have probably seen this one

http://www.bennyskaktus.dk/images/other ... _elata.JPG

Here's an interesting, yet sad, article about the fate of yucca brevifolia in its native habitat (which is, in fact, becoming too hot). While this reality is sad, I think it shows why the plant can easily thrive in colder areas-conditions that may be closer to what it endured around the last ice age. Also, people always use native habitat as evidence that a plant isn't 'meant' to be elsewhere. As this article shows, sometimes there just isn't a natural mechanism to carry seeds to places where the plant could thrive-to, for example, Salt Lake or Idaho.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=17628032

[DesertZone]

Cool post
But don't worry about the j-trees in the wild, they still will be there for many, many years. They grow in places like Phoenix AZ. Wich is much warmer than there native habitat and they do well there.
Yuccas are very adaptable and should be planted into more areas of the west. I belive they add a touch of interest in the exescape. This will be more of a trend seen across western US in the future.

PS The news here did an article about the single leaf pinyon pine possibly dying off here in Idaho if the temp rises 2-3 deg f. I find that very hard to belive, because it is found here in the most northern part of its range. This is a zone 4-5 area, but this plant grows in the south in places as warm a zone 8 or warmer. That is temps of as much as 20 deg f warmer than here in Idaho? There is no funding for research to show if things will be ok? Just dooms day news. IMO

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Duncan I really doubt we will see very many of the Joshua trees here in the Okanagan Valley. I sure people would plant them if they even new they would survive here. "I`m sounding like a broken record every spring". I go to the nuseries with literature in hand about how cold hardy Joshuas, Y. rostrata and many other Yuccas that will grow here. The frustrating part is they look in there buying manual and it tells them they are a zone 8 plant. I had one manager tell me we were a zone 4b. I lost it ! and told him what a diservice he was doing for his customers and his boss.

John

[ronbruce]

It's very frustrating.

By the way today I saw a beautful rostrata with a good five feet of trunk at Cedar Rim Nursery in Langley. Very nice. They had an amazing Yucca aloifolia variegated that I wondered about surviving in Penticton.

I saw many small rostratas at Southlands in Vancouver but they were beautiful. Some bluer than others.

When our local nursery brought in Yucca rostrata two years ago most customers ignored them and most were not sold. I hope the ones that sold will live and cause a demand to happen.

The nursery staff and customers need to be educated and it's hard to do and if there is any chance of all of winter damage let alone death.... notwithstanding that the same thing could happen to their precious junipers, etc (I do like junipers, most junipers, and that's just an example) than what can one do.

I always try to push things like crape myrtles too which always come back from the roots for me and my Acoma is flowering right now.

My Musa basjoos always come back but are still less than a foot tall and have never been like they were the first year I planted them.

I should have bought that Yucca recurvifolia I saw today and plunked it in my front yard. Dang.

[lucky1]

Duncan, sorry, I don't know how I missed your excellent post!!!

Very interesting reading.
That second pic/link (from Bennyskaktus)...I've drooled over that internet picture many times!

Reading your link about the joshuas, instead of the park rangers lamenting why the joshuas around them are dead and dying, why don't the rangers collect 20 pounds of seed (in the absence of the sloths...) and drive to the steppes nearby and scatter seed over a 50 acre area? (Duh!)

The joshua in that Salt Lake city pic is unbloody-believable!

I admire your optimism.
Then I think back to last winter...the coldest and longest, in my memory anyway.
Even my y.filamentosa which are normally bulletproof got set back, flowering a month late this year.

John, agree!
Yesterday I went in to a reputable big nursery and asked for "Palm Special Fertilizer". They recommended 20-20-20. I patiently told them that ratio should be approx. 3-1-4+3 + Mn + trace.
They looked at me like I was from Mars.
I asked them "so what do YOU use on your gorgeous palms here?"
Are you sitting down for the reply?
"We use 20-20-20 if they don't sell right away, mostly they come in looking good."

The manager said to me: "If we stocked that fertilizer, you'd be the only person who'd buy it."

And bricks-n-mortar shops people complain about shopping online!
Sigh.

Heaven knows B.C. Okanagan's summer temps resemble the southern U.S. desert.
It's just our bloody winters plants have to make it through.
I hope this el Nino lasts!

Barb

[Paul Ont]

I like this topic! I've always believed that many of the Southwest Yuccas are VERY conservatively 'ranked' according to USDA zone. I mean, hell, I had a Y. brevifolia survive here for 4 years with moisture protection. It only perished when I transplanted it to a new garden and left it to fend for itself. The thing took -32C as a first year seedling. With NO snow cover. I wouldn't say that it was happy, but it did survive and grow.

Some others have been rather disappointing. For instance Y. thompsoniana died in 1 winter even with mositure protection. I think it was more to do with the fact that the thing tried to grow all winter (it got all whitish in the middle) then with the actual low temperatures. Another disappointment is some of the non-trunking Western types. Yucca harrimaniae survives here but isn't happy (might be happier in a dry climate), same with Y. baccata (which sort of trunks, depeneding mostly on altitude) and Y. nana.

The point is, these plants can take a lot of cold, as long as they're dry. I'm really suprized there aren't more examples of trunking Yucca in the Okanagon, it just makes sense to grow them there!

[hardyjim]

Great pics!
Love the J-tree in SLC!
Interesting reading on J-trees and the sloth.

As long as we have DZ and his J-trees they will never vanish-keep up the good work

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb welcome to nursery ignorance . We have broached this subject many a time. If you want palm food order it from Vancouver "cheap shipping" or better yet stop by and I have some"Lilly Miller palm tree food 10-5-08 "you can have and maybe a couple of Sabal louisiana or Sabal minor? Paul I was driving down the street and seen a couple 4 ft tall Y. rostrata. I also know of another house that has many yuccas growing for a few years now. Time to get off my ass and get some pics and permission from one of the owners to take a couple of the backyard.

John

[Cowtown Palm Society]

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses to the post. There are certainly some cool examples out there already that defy these plant's very conservative USDA zone classifications. Yuccas are very intriguing for me in Calgary. It's super dry here and filimentosa and, especially, glauca are already proven here. So, I'm hoping to have success with some of more exotic zone 5-6ers-rostrata, bacatta, elata etc.- in protected micros, with some protection through the worst of our winter. Maybe a babied brevifolia or two, also. The real downside here, is a lack of summer heat.

Barb, agreed-time to get an active planting campaign going for the JT. Keep us posted on your Trachy this winter!

John, would love to see those four-foot rostratas and some picks of your plants too!

Paul, that's so cool with your brevifoila- -32!? I've got some seedlings right now that I'm hoping to try outside in a couple of years.

hardyjim, nice weather you guys are having down there!

Happy zone pushing all!

Duncan

[lucky1]

get off my ass and get some pics

hopefully before the snow hits

Just noticed my little Joshua has TWO inches of clear trunk.

Having only one, I don't want to risk this guy outdoors.
Barb

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb once they get trunk they really start to take off.

John

[DesertZone]

Nice J-tree Barb.

[Cowtown Palm Society]

Hi Barb,

Looks great! How long did yours take to show some trunk? I've got some 7-8 month seedlings going now. Right now, they are very similar in appearance to yours, minus the trunk. I'm wondering how long it will take for these plants to take on a real JT appearance, i.e. where the plant essentially starts to look like the branch of a specimen you see in the Mohave Desert, for example. Like this picture, for example:



Thanks!

Duncan

[DesertZone]

Just noticed my little Joshua has TWO inches of clear trunk.

Having only one, I don't want to risk this guy outdoors.
Barb

Barb, are you sure that is a J-tree. If it is it might be a cross with elata?

Just a guess, I have been wrong many times.

[Cowtown Palm Society]

Hi All,

I purchased my brevifolia (what I hope are brevifolia, anyway) seeds through U.S. sellers on eBay. I'm starting to wonder if my seedlings are pure brevifolia, or brevifolia at all. They are definetly yuccas of some sort, but on some plants the leaves strike me as being too long and flaccid to be brevifolia. Maybe it's too early to tell? What do you guys think?



Thanks!

Duncan

[lucky1]

Duncan, I've only had this little guy for a year, I think he was a year old when received.
That little trunk wasn't there in the spring (for sure).
Just noticed it so it must have grown this year?

Hey you both make a good point...long and flaccid leaves!

While there are great pics on that website, they're all of MATURE specimens.

So, brevifolia? elata? a cross?

How to solve the mystery?
Barb

[DesertZone]

So, brevifolia? elata? a cross?

How to solve the mystery?
Barb

I think it elata x because of the hairs/fibers on the the leaves, bevifolia does not have fibers on the leaves. If it is a cross between the two it will be an awesome site when older.
Where did you get the seed from?

[lucky1]

Ooooh, an elata x sounds interesting.
Will have to look up hardiness.

Didn't germinate this one (only one of my germinated rostratas is still alive).
Got it from John last year.
Was soooooo happy to get that.
Those hairs/fibers just showed up this year...very cool.

Duncan, your brevifolia is beautiful, leaves look substantial at the base.

Maybe Paul and Josef can give us their ID experience.
Barb

[DesertZone]

Hi All,

I purchased my brevifolia (what I hope are brevifolia, anyway) seeds through U.S. sellers on eBay. I'm starting to wonder if my seedlings are pure brevifolia, or brevifolia at all. They are definetly yuccas of some sort, but on some plants the leaves strike me as being too long and flaccid to be brevifolia. Maybe it's too early to tell? What do you guys think?



Thanks!

Duncan

I think you have a pure j-tree in the pic. Leaves on young j-trees and seedlings are long and soft compared to older ones. It also takes about 3-5 years from seed for them to start a nice trunk. Becareful with the fertilizer, this can make a faster growing trunk but skinny and weak.

[lucky1]

Sheesh...more research, can get lost in this comprehensive one:

http://www.bennyskaktus.dk/Y_hybrids.htm#wild

[Paul Ont]

Barb,
Not sure about this one, neither of the plants you've shown look anything like a Josua tree. But, Yucca seedling phenotype is very plastic, and can look completely different from adult plants. That said, if I had to guess I'd say that neither of those plants are Yucca brevifolia. As for what they actually are... Maybe elata? Maybe glauca? Maybe some hybrid? Certainly they are one of the narrower leaved Western Yucca, but for a concrete I.D. we'll have to wait until they are older. Can you give other info: i.e. are he leaves firm? do they have any teeth (even minute)? are the surfaces smooth?

Here are a few of my own shots from when my Yucca were much smaller, might help with I.D.
Yucca elata, seedlings tend to be 'droopy', but not all will show this trait.
<img src="http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/6757/ ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0037">
Yucca brevifolia. I miss him:(
<img src="http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/27073 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="IMGP0038">
Yucca baccata, still looking for one that will be hardy long term here in the wet east.
<img src="http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/44795 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="Small baccata">

[Cowtown Palm Society]

I think you have a pure j-tree in the pic. Leaves on young j-trees and seedlings are long and soft compared to older ones. It also takes about 3-5 years from seed for them to start a nice trunk. Becareful with the fertilizer, this can make a faster growing trunk but skinny and weak.

Thanks Aaron! Patience, patience....I want a JT like yours! I'll watch the fertilizer.

Duncan

[lucky1]

Leaves are long, firm but whippy in the wind. Minor twisting vs. Paul's young example.
Smooth leaves with no feel of any teeth.
Leaf edges very thin necrotic-looking band, which breaks creating filaments.

Considerable woody trunk for such a youngster. Striking blue leaves.




Could it be Y.constricta? second pic down on this link:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/412 ... d518dd.jpg

Only time will tell, but not taking any chances with cold hardiness.
It's coming in at -5C.

I feel for you on the Y.brevi...loss.

Thanks for your input folks.
Barb

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Barb I believe I gave you that Joshua tree summer last? I grew them from seed so they are pure "Yucca Brevifolia". They start out with very pliable needle leafs for the first three years or so depending where they are grown. I think you will start to see them turn into blood spears soon!LOL.

John

[lucky1]

Glad to hear that John.
Yup, that's the one you gave me last year.

I'm amazed it's starting to trunk so young...

Are yours beginning to trunk too?
Thanks.
Barb

[Paul Ont]

John, I hope you're right, I'd hate to think someone was selling improperly labelled seed (though this is not unprecedented...).

You can see the second year leaves on my former brevifolia if you look at the bottom of the plant (the yellow ones). They were certainly firm and mature when I planted it out. I don't recall there being much of a tender leaf phase on my brevifolia seedlings (there must have been), nor do I recall the leaves 'shrinking' to normal size after an intial elongation. Do you have a book ref. or website that you could direct me to for that? If it's true, I'd be interested to read about it! I should also say, that it's been a few years since I attempted to germinate and Joshua tree seeds (though I did collect C. 30 of them in Southwestern Utah last fall, maybe I should try these...). I do know that juvenile Yucca leaves are more succulent that mature ones, but I don't know of an example where the adult leaves are smaller then the juvenile ones. Here is an Aussie ebay site which details the growth of small J-trees, which grow their maturesque leaves well within a year: http://reviews.ebay.com.au/Growing-Yucc ... 0004410217

For some descriptions of different Yucca see the book by the Irish's.
Yucca brevifolia leaves: the ridgid leaves, 6-14in long, range in colour from gray-green to light blue-green. They are sharp pointed with minute teeth along the margin (serrate) and are whitish in colour. The only similar specie slisted is Y. jalisccensis, but this species has larger leaves with no filaments.

Yucca elata: leaves are thin and flexible, up to 3ft long. White margins are composedof numerous filaments which are most easily visible near the leaf bases. When young Y. elata is difficultto distinguish from Y. angustissima, Y. glauca. Also similar to Y. rostrata.

Y. rostrata: Has yellow filaments so it's out.

Yucca glauca: Very narrow, up to 36inches. Grey-green in colour and bordered by white filaments which are most abundant near the leaf base. Similar to many Western acaulescent species (Y. angusstissima, baileyi, constricta, kanabensis, etc.).

I'm guessing that this plant is growing in a container outdoors in the summer, so light isn't causing it to become etoliated. I wonder if it's not a glauca v. stricta? They are known to form short above ground trunks of small diameter. I must admit that I've never seen even a glauca form a trunk that narrow and with such a small head of leaves. Maybe what we're actually looking at is an extension of the roots, because even with the modified 'secondary thickening' found in J-trees, I can't see that forming a natural looking Y. brevifolia trunk.

So, my vote is for glauca, anyone care to argue the opposite side?

[DesertZone]

Barb I believe I gave you that Joshua tree summer last? I grew them from seed so they are pure "Yucca Brevifolia". They start out with very pliable needle leafs for the first three years or so depending where they are grown. I think you will start to see them turn into blood spears soon!LOL.

John

John,
Did that seed came from the wild, and if so what area? If it came from the wild it must be have crossed with something else. J-trees also have very small saw like teeth along the edges of the leaves, and I don't see any from the pic and they don't have fiber threads on the edge of the leaves.
Very cool if it came straight off a j-tree.

[Jay-Admin]

Hate to say it Barb, but it doesn't look like a pure JT to me. Maybe a cross?

Which would be cool. You just have to wait and see.

Here's a JT I grew from seed. Sorry it's a bad pic.



All the Joshuas I have had have sharp saw like teeth on the edges and shorter leaves
like Aaron pointed out.

-Jay

[Cowtown Palm Society]

Super cool discussion folks! After reading this topic this morning, I though I remembered reading somewhere that brevifolia can not be crossed-in nature or by man. There's a guy in Denmark named Benny Moller Jensen who does extensive yucca crossing. I though I read on his website that brevifolia crosses are not possible. While I can't find this again, his site does have an extensive list of man-made and naturally occuring hybrids-none of which involve brevifolia.

http://www.bennyskaktus.dk/yucca-hybrid ... ntury.html

I don't think brevifolia crosses exist. If anyone has definitive proof to the contrary, I'd love to see it (I'd love to be wrong about this-make me a glauca x brevifolia!!!)! So, I think, Barb's plant is either brevifolia, or not at all. After looking at John's JTs (from the same seed http://okanaganpalms.multiply.com/photo ... 0#photo=56) again, you can see how the bigger specimens start to look more like JTs as they're found in their natural habitiat. The small one on the far right looks just like Barb's plant, I think. I've noticed that many cultivated JT specimens take on a different look: greener and longer leaves and a more chaotic leaf pattern, it seems. Perhaps more nutrients account for the greener appearance. Anyhow, I say Barb's plant is JT-under unique growing conditions (more nutrients, Canadian sun angle etc.).

Thanks!

Duncan

[DesertZone]

I think I have seen a pic of a j-tree and a baccata x, but now I can't find it. If Barb has a j-tree cross it would be a very wanted plant, especially if it was crossed with a elata.

[Jay-Admin]

I think I have seen a pic of a j-tree and a baccata x, but now I can't find it. If Barb has a j-tree cross it would be a very wanted plant, especially if it was crossed with a elata.

Now that would be cool.

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Well all this speculation on what Barb`s Yucca is. That yucca is at least 2 1/2 to three years old this I know. I don`t recall if I started any yucca seeds besides Y. brevifolia in that time period. So it could be my bad. I`ll see if I can`t dig up some old pics to see if I can verify what it is? The seeds I got I ordered from seedrack.com

John

[DesertZone]

Well all this speculation on what Barb`s Yucca is.

John

Hi John,
I think we are all bored. If it was spring we would have something better to talk about.

[lucky1]

Whatever it is, it looks better every week.


Good news and bad news:
Found another yucca site with 21 PAGES of Yucca pics AND subspecies.
http://www.yuccaagavaceae.org/photos/ca ... 3b2&page=1

The bad news?
It's in German.
Just interested in the pics anyway.

Barb

[DesertZone]

Whatever it is, it looks better every week.

Barb

Awesome little yucca, I wish I had one like it.

Off topic, but how are your "sapphire skies" rostratas doing? I have one comming in the spring. Are they as blue as they say?

[DesertZone]

Found another yucca site with 21 PAGES of Yucca pics AND subspecies.
http://www.yuccaagavaceae.org/photos/ca ... 3b2&page=1

The bad news?
It's in German.
Just interested in the pics anyway.

Barb

Thanks for another awesome site. Some of the best palm/yucca sites are from overseas.
We are not very hip over here when it comes to the garden world.

[lucky1]

Aaron, the "Sapphire Skies" have put on a lot of growth this year.
I have six, three in a communal pot, to compare growth.

These three are not as blue as the ones in individual pots.


Sapphire Skies in a 2 gall pot, doubled in size over last year, with more blue.


Very happy with the Plant Delights (in the Carolinas) quality, although it was $$$$ to get them here, with the phyto certificate.
And the owner, Tony Avent puts out a nice newsletter.

Great if you found a local supplier of Sapphire Skies.
Will you plant it out, or keep it in a pot for a year or two?
Barb

[Jay-Admin]

Those are looking nice Barb. Is that a clay pot in the first pic? You must need a forklift to move
it.

[DesertZone]

Great if you found a local supplier of Sapphire Skies.
Will you plant it out, or keep it in a pot for a year or two?
Barb

I'm going to plant it outside when I get it in the spring. I will plant any yucca when it gets to the size you have, but I always try to cover them for the first year or two. This helps them alot. Very easy to do even if it is just a plastic milk-jug.

[lucky1]

You must need a forklift

Got one of those little handcarts from Cdn Tire, sure saves my back.

Aaron, planting it out in spring gives it a whole summer to get roots into the surrounding soil.
Then I chicken out and dig it up in Fall.

Did you see the pictures of the Rostrata seedling roots when I received them last year?
They're so fleshy, no wonder they can survive drought.
Kinda weird looking!


Barb