Fortunei leaf and Takil leaf

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macario
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Fortunei leaf and Takil leaf

Post by macario »

This is something I just got e-mailed

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Post by DesertZone »

Very interesting 8) I have heard that is one way to tell them apart.
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"Takil" leaves

Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

Macario, where did you get the first photo from? This is definitely MY picture and it is MY fortunei and MY hand and that pic.
And it is as I already mentioned NOT a T. takil. It is in fact a T. fortunei x wagnerianus and this picture proves that the asymetric hastula is NOT a Takil trait. It isn´t a genetic trait at all. It is just an individual modification according to stress or growing conditions and it can appear an any Trachycarpus species.

In the original description of the t. takil mady by Odoardo Beccari in 1905 this trait is NOT mentionend either. It was proclaimed as a Takil trait or even as THE distinguishing trait by T. Spanner after he had seen in in Kumaon on that very palms from which today´s takil seeds are harvested.
He considered it a genetic trait but so far none of the offsprings of these palms has ever produced one.
The true Takils Beccari grew from seeds he reportedly got from Kumaon never showed this trait either.

So please stop using this picture under the title "Takil Hastula".

There is one distinguishing trait, however. It is the leaf form. The leaf segments of Takil split the leaf blade irregularly but ONLY DOWN TO ABOUT THE MIDDLE, where the leaf segments of Fortunei (as can be seen on my picture) irregularly split the leaf very deeply, with a very deep cutr every 2 or 3 segments.

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Unfortunately all the offsprings of today´s takil show exactly this leaf and segment pattern :wink:

This is how a TRUE TAKIL looks like:

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macario
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Takil

Post by macario »

Now thats what i call information :lol:
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Post by DesertZone »

Where is that pic of the true takil taken from :?: And do you have any true takils in your yard :?: And if you do then where can a person get the seed from :?: Good info by the way, I also have heard that info was not correct, but have never seen it for my self. So is all the takils in the US half breeds :?:
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macario
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Takil

Post by macario »

What I've heard is that most older ones are probably some kind of Trachycarpus mix. And they say that the best way to get a real one is to get some that where collected in the expedition in india in 1994 or to get a younger that was known to have been grown from imported seeds that can be traced back to india in one way or another. If you want a good takil you can get one from jungle music, they have 15 gallon ones grown from seed that was imported and they can prove it. The guy at jungle music said they grow very fast, he had one in a box they had grown from seed as well but they sold it.
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

That pic was taken in Rome and it show the only ture Takil that exists in Europe or elsewhere outside of India.
it was grown from seeds by the italian Botanist O. Beccari in 1887 who reportedly got the seeds from Mt. Takil (Thalkedar) in Kumoan, india.
All other Takils grown from the original batch of seeds died during harsh winters in Florence, Italy. Only this specimen in Rome survived because it is much warmer in Rome.
This picture also poves that Takil do not have bare trunks and keep the fibres and even the old leaves for their whole life span.

I have no takil in my garden und in my view the takils grown from seeds coming to Europe since 1994 are different from what Beccari described and show leaves typical for fortunei.
They also lack other Beccarian takil traits except for the creeping habit when young. But this is a habit which takil shares with most of the Trachycarpus species, including many fortuneis (not all).

But let´s get back to the asymetric Hastula which we were told was a typical Takil trait.

Now look at this:

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I have just received this picture from the Universtity of Florence where the orignal herbaric specimens of the takil are being stored.
it shows the rachis of one of the leaves taken from THAT VERY TAKIL SPECIMEN that Beccari used for his description of that species in 1905.
This Rachis (the backside of the Hastula) is very regular and so the hastula is. It is NOT ASYMETRIC and therefore the adymetric hstual CANNOT BE a true and reliable Takil trait.
Beccari had several takils grown from the seeds from Kumaon but none of these plants ever showed this sort of hastula.
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Post by Okanagan desert-palms »

Hello Arnold. Just a follow up on T. takil. Are these new hybridized versions of T.takil x T. trachycarpus since 1994 any more cold hardy, grow faster and taller than the pure T. trachycarpus? These claims are made by nurseries selling them as pure as T. takil from seeds collected from the original source of these trees. Thank you for your opinion.
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

I do not know of any hybridized takils. And if they are takil x fortunei hybrids then these hybrids should me less coldhardy than fortunei.
True takil has not survived in Italy north of Rome but Fortunei grwos happily and is self reproductive several hundreds km to the north in the Italian and Swiss Alps. Fortunei ist definitely hardier as ist come from a much colder climate. Kumaon is much warmer than central china.

http://www.weatherreports.com/Mukteshwa ... rages.html

The last takil in Florence died in 1985 and the other plants in Beccari´s Garden died many years earlier during cold winters. However, Florence Italy is a relatively mild place. I grow fortuneis almost 1.000 miles north of Florence without any protection.

So most of the properties that were assigned to the Takil are exaggerated. It is NOT the most coldhardy Trachy, it is definitely NOT the fastest growing Trachy, it das NOT have a naked trunk, it is NOT larger in all parts and it does NOT have 60 leaf segments.

Beccari has given us a completely different description and this description is the only valid description. If the palms which are now called Takils have all these traits mentioned above then they are something different but not takil.
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Trachycarpus Fortunei cv "Tesan"

Post by macario »

Ok since you have alot of information I wanted to know if I could ask you this, what do you think about the cold hardyness of the fortunei growing in bejing china? That is a zone 6/7 climate there and they have adult 20 foot fortunei there, and they harvest seeds and have smaller 3-6 foot of trunk trees for sale. Would you say I would have a better bet getting those instead of growing so called takils in zone 6?
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Post by DesertZone »

If nurseries have for a plant for sale they are calling the takil, and it has a bald trunk, then what palm is it :?: I had one of these "takils" in the past and it grew faster and larger then the same aged fortunei. They claimed that the seed came from India?
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

in America nurseries still sell T. wagnerianus (has small fans) as T. takil. That is because some 40 years ago a well-known palm magazine in the US showed a picture of a wagnerianus which was labelled as T. takil. And nurseries somethimes are notoriously sticking to false names. The same happens here in Europe with "Chamaerops excelsa" This name is still used for T. fortunei although it is all wrong.

So if somebody offers you LARGE trunked Takils it will be anything else but not true takil, probably T. wagnerianus which however is no longer regarded as a separate species but is now only a synonym for T. fortunei.

The Fortuneis from Beg´jing are neither a new species nor a variation. Those are normal T. fortunei from costal China which were brought to Bejing.
The climatic data of Bejing show that the lowest temperature during the past 20 years was +2°F which every established fortunei can easily handle.

All you have to do ist to let your Fortunei adapt itself to your climate. This takes 2-3 years. During the first your you have to protect ist when temps go below
12°F. The following Winter you can let it take 5°F without protection. From then on you should protect it however or it will lose it leaves.
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Post by DesertZone »

Yes, once upon a time nuseries here in the US may have mistaked t. wagnerianus for takil, but I think that is an old mistake. Most nurseries in the US even point this out. Even if the palm US nurseries are selling as Takil is just a t. fortunei it has proven here to be a faster growing, larger, and more cold hardy then the normal spieces.
And I don't buy that about t. wagnerianus either :? People may say t. wagnerianus is the same as t. fortunei, but it looks very diferent to me :wink:
I think you have very good info :D , but I have spoken to sameone from China that knows these palms called Trachycarpus Fortunei cv "Tesan" have survived -4 f. and yes they are a form of t. fortunei, but are proving to do better than the normal spieces.
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

it is not unsual that fortunei survives such temperatures but this does not make them a separate species. Of course palm certain dealers would like them to be one.....
My fortuneis here in Germany also have survived -2°F. That is northing unusual. it all depends on how early you plant them and how long they have been able to acclimatize. Every now an then somebody pops up and presentsa "new and super coldhardy palm" That´s nothing new. But so far all these palms have turned out to be plain normal regular fortuneis. This Ciinese guy can send a leaf probe to the guy who is currently doing DNA-tests all Trachycarpus species. He will know very soon what it really is.

once again, if somebody offers you large trunked "Takils" ask him where he got them from. He cannot have them grown from seeds since the first so called takil seeds apart from the seeds Beccary got in 1887, came to Europe and the USA in 1994. And these "takils" really grow slowly.
There are a few hundred true Takils left in the orignal habitat in Northern India and these are protected by the Government.
So where are these "takils" from? Do they have deeply split leaves? Then they are no true takils. There was a big hype about the Takil some years ago when it was "rediscovered" and it was said it was the most coldhardy of the genus, larger in all parts, faster growing, bare trunked, taller, more beautiful, so bold....
All this is not true. True takil is just as large as fortunei, as covered with fibres as fortunei, probably slower growing and very probably less coldhardy as its habitat is much warmer than that where fortunei originally comes from (China).
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Post by DesertZone »

I think some of my info is not being read correctly. The super hardy palms form China are t. fortunei just a better cold hardy form.

The Takil from Rome looks so diferent then the pictures of that palm in the wild, it makes me wonder if there is another palm out there? That people have taken seed from? That grows larger and faster.

Just because something is protected does not always mean that its seed is. The Joshua tree is protected but in most cases you can harvets the seed. And it would not be very hard to buy seed under the table in a country like India. Here in the US I can buy Takils grown from wild collected seed. You can also buy wild collected seed to grow your self :D

I also think you have very good info on this subject and I can not rule out your evidence. :D
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

Just because something is protected does not always mean that its seed is. The Joshua tree is protected but in most cases you can harvets the seed. And it would not be very hard to buy seed under the table in a country like India. Here in the US I can buy Takils grown from wild collected seed. You can also buy wild collected seed to grow your self icon_biggrin.gif

I also think you have very good info on this subject and I can not rule out your evidence. icon_biggrin.gif


no, your information was understood perfectly. That Chinese Trachycarpus is neither a new species nor a "neW and more coldhardy form of T. fortunei. ist is just normal fortunei.

How fast do you think a Trachycarpus can grow? There is no Trachycarpus species o this planet that can grow 3 meters or more of trunk wihthin 10 years.
And you are right. That Rome takil looks different and it is different from the palms we know as takils today. These palms look like fortunei. The first seeds of these palm arrived in Europe and AMerica in 1994.

When I speak about protection then I mean that is cannot be dug out . That is the only way to get a 3 meter True Takil. It takes far longer than 10 years to grow a Takil to that height. It is extremly slow growing wihtin the first 10 years because it creeps on the ground in its infancy.

Have you ever read the original description of the T. takil by Beccari? Beccari described how he grew that palm and it took him 14 years until it had a trunk of 1 meter. it then grew at a pace of 30 - 40 cm trunk per year.

The palms you can buy grown from "seeds collected in the wild" are grown from seeds collected from Trachycarpus grown in front of the Boat Club house in the Tourist own of Nainital, Kumaon, India. A really "wild" place! True wild seeds are hard to come by because there are only a few mature and seed bearing plants at all and these are controlled by the Government which runs a program to save this species.

I bet, you cannot show me JUST ONE SINGLE plant that has the sort of leaves shown by the Rome Takil!
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Post by DesertZone »

Sounds good :D
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

Your info was read und understood but that trachycarpus from China ist neither a news species nor a new and more coldhardy form. it is just T. fortunei.
The Rome in Rome is looks different from the "takils" available here now because it is different.

If I mean a plant is protected then I mean that you cnnot dig it out and that is the only way to get a 3m trunked Takil.
The seeds "from the wild" were collected from Trachycarpus (probably forunei) in front of the Boat Club House in the tourist town of Nainital in Kumaon, India.
That is a really "wild place". True seeds from the wild are hard to come by as there are only a few adult specimens of T. takil left in the wild and the seeds are collected by the government for a program to save this species. An most of the fruiting trees do not carry seeds every year.

Here is a very interesting report on T. takil made by an Indian Professor in 1995

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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

Your info was read und understood but that trachycarpus from China ist neither a news species nor a new and more coldhardy form. it is just T. fortunei.
The Rome in Rome is looks different from the "takils" available here now because it is different.

If I mean a plant is protected then I mean that you cnnot dig it out and that is the only way to get a 3m trunked Takil.
The seeds "from the wild" were collected from Trachycarpus (probably forunei) in front of the Boat Club House in the tourist town of Nainital in Kumaon, India.
That is a really "wild place". True seeds from the wild are hard to come by as there are only a few adult specimens of T. takil left in the wild and the seeds are collected by the government for a program to save this species. An most of the fruiting trees do not carry seeds every year.

Here is a very interesting report on T. takil made by an Indian Professor in 1995

Image
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Post by DesertZone »

Well I have read and I geuss I can't stop talking about this :D It did say that on a steep hill side many young and adults where found, a " treasure-house" with a number of young and adult trees. I think it very possible for seed to be harvested by a collector :D
As far as t. wagnerianus it sure looks diferent to me :wink: It may have came from Japan and that makes it very likely a diferent sp.
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

However the seeds you can buy here were not from that slope. They are from Nainital.
But we have a saying: "Hope dies last".


T. wagnerianus originally came from China to Japan probably as T. fortunei and was bred to produce smaller leaves.
There is no other diference between wagnerianus und fortunei. First genetic tests have shown almost no genedic distance between both forms. Final dna test results will be issued soon.
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Post by DesertZone »

Good info :D I am learning new things. I have seen pictures in a horticulture book from 1910, that showed palms that looked liked t. wagnerunianus. It was very interesting :shock: the people there were wrapping them to protect them against the winters in the northern part of the country :lol: Looks like the cold hardy palm has been around for a long time :wink:
It will very interesting to see if t. wag. is the same as t. fort. :D

I still wounder what trachy from india has the bare trunk? If it is not t. takil :?: Because t. fortunei has a hairy trunk.
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Here's to all the global warming pushers, may your winters be -30 below and four feet of snow in your driveway. Because I want you happy.
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Takil

Post by macario »

When that information becomes available will you let us know?
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

This info will first be published in "Palms" because the test are being financed by the IPS and are done by a guy from Hamburg/Germany as a diploma thesis.
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Post by Arnold, Cologne Germany »

Aaron, the first time the hemp palm was mentioned by a westener in literature was in 1712 by the German physician who served with the Dutch trading post in Nagasaki, Japan. At that time, only Dutch traders from the Dutch United East India Company where allowed to
set foot on Japan territory adn Adalbert Kaempfer disguised himself a a Dutchmen and discribed a lot of plants.
100 year later it was another German physician, Philip Franz von Siebold, who brought the first T. fortunei to Euroape in 1830 (under the name of Chamaerops exelsa). Hoever already Adalbert Kaempfer wrote thate that palm came from China.

The bare trunked Trachies are T. martianus Nepal) and Tr. martianus (Khasia Hills). Furthermore, the are a lot of fortuneis here with are trunks. Not all fortuneis have hairy trunks. However, ALL true takils have hairy trunks. The Rome takil´s trunk is onlydenuded on the for t 2 meters. The rest is fully overed with fibres AND old leaves for over 100 years. And this is exactlywhat Beccari wrote in his description.
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Post by Pilgerodendron »

Arnold is correct in his description of the fortunei / takil / wagnerianus differences.

I am so "confused," over this speciation debate, that I no longer refer to the genus by species, and references to our planted Trachycarpus are simply what they were acquired as.

It might be better to refer to the whole bunch as the "fortunei group" with variations. I've seen enough mature Trachycarpus now to be certain that a wide range of variation and "hybridization" occurs, assuming there truly are these different species.

Out of interest, below are leaves of our takil, photo taken Saturday morning, temperature -2F. One thing they do in subzero F cold is turn very dark, blackish green. So far, no internal cell damage has occurred from subzero F cold in these Trachycarpus. Spears are also solid and intact.

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