Cold Hardiest Palm Trees!!!

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:46 pm

This site shows how cold hardy the Trachycarpus strain really is . Zone 6 and 5b people should have more hope about takil ,waggy`s, fortunei,larger trees planted in the ground survival rates in our zone! I only hope to get some of these seeds? www.polarpalm.net

Post by **Jay-Admin** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:15 pm

Ya, That's a great site. I have tried to contact him to get some seeds with no luck. So if you get any seeds i would love to try some out.

Regards,
Jay

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:24 am

I have had one of his palms, but it died

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:09 pm

Maybe it`s all hype with little truth? Aaron what winter temps did you have? How old was it before you put it in the ground. I won`t bother trying to get seeds from the Bulgarian Trachys if I know what facts.

Best Regards, John

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:09 pm

Maybe it`s all hype with little truth? Aaron what winter temps did you have? How old was it before you put it in the ground. I won`t bother trying to get seeds from the Bulgarian Trachys if I know what facts.

Best Regards, John

DesertZone · Post by **DesertZone** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:37 pm

Sorry, I better give more info.
It died before I got to see what it would do. I was so happy to have it, but then it all of a sudden died before winter? I think it did not like the trance plant or something

I hope to try again one day

macario · Post by **macario** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:10 pm

I garys nursery has some of those from bulgaria for sale, just call him. I am almost positive he does.

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:04 pm

Thanks Macario for the info on Gary`s nursery in North Carolina. He has one big operation there. The only problem is he doesn`t do mail order only pick up and wholesale to other nurseries.
Regards,

JOHN

Pilgerodendron · Post by **Pilgerodendron** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:56 pm

Hi,

First time posting here. Much experience with cold tolerance in palms. Studied this since 1986.

Rhapidophyllum hystrix is most cold tolerant.
Our oldest flowered and produced a crop of fruit and seed in 2003; first palms we know of in Colorado to do that in 35 million years. Comfortable saying hystrix can go to -14F if soil is dry.

Sabal is good too. We have minor, and "birmingham," both of which are surviving, but not performing as well as Trachycarpus recently.

Trachycarpus are surprising us. Many failures at first, but a few years ago, learning from those failures, we developed a theory of equilibrium decline. These palms are never dormant, and while subzeroF always defoliated them, the bud often recovered. However if in the following growing season, they did not replace 100% of the lost mass, they entered "decline," where in a few years at best, the palm died, not from cold, but from exhaustion.

Equilibrium is a critical mass, when the crown of fronds achieves a unique balance, and the characteristic trunk develops. From that equilibrium point on, for every frond grown, one is shed.

If a Trachycarpus could be protected here in Zone 5b during those brief periods when subzero F cold occurs, usually only a few days each winter, limiting catastrophic cell and tissue collapse, a palm could enter a new growing season without the prerequisite of replacing lost mass, and instead increase mass, moving toward trunk formation equilibrium. It might be strengthened to more greatly resist lethal freeze, based on observation of Trachy experimenters in Zone 7. Our method was to construct a canvas tent in which the palm could be protected and kept dry, only when air temperature fell below 0F. The method was extremely successful. We currently have fortunei, takil, wagnerianus, nanus, and fortunei 'greensboro' in the ground, overwintering with minimal to no damage, for several years now.

This winter, an extraordinary development was observed. In early December 2005, we had a true Zone 5 period, with 36 sustained hours of subzero F cold, temperature bottom to -15F, coldest event in twenty years, and record cold for the date. I expected to see extensive damage on these Trachycarpus, based on the lab models of lethal freeze damage observed by Allen Hirsh and Dave Francko. Temperature inside the tent fell to at least -11F. When temperatures rebounded and the cover was removed, there was no visible damage to several of the palms. (Tissue collapse from lethal freeze is alwyas immediately visible) When I took leaf tissue samples for examination, I found cell walls in new growth exposed to subzero F cold last year, were up to 3x thicker than previously seen and measured growth. It appears Trachycarpus may have some adaptive ability after all.

Another observation in these palms is a peculiar creeping stem. While some less cold tolerant Trachycarpus exhibit a stem creep, some takil, wagnerianus and fortunei show a trait very similar to our alpine woody plants, in a sideways or even briefly upward growing root, to counter the effect of slope frost heaving, and quickly anchor the palm onto an alpine slope that creeps due to frost heaving and gravity. It was these Trachycarpus that also showed the massive thickening of cell walls, that resisted lethal freeze that we expected to severely damage them.

We are in an arid climate, and withold water most of the fall and all winter, limiting the palms to less than one inch total water per month. We found that the drier soil produces an osmolarity that increased resistance to lethal freeze temperature by several degrees F.

It appears Trachycarpus rank in order of cold tolerance, takil, wagnerianus and fortunei, but wagnerianus, with its smaller leaves, may eventually outperform all. Its osmolarity range is greater than the other species, suggesting it might be the most resistance to subzero F cold. There is also a great deal of hybridization, and fortunei, takil and wagnerianus might not be the separate species we think, but variations of a common ancestor, and adapted by changes because of specific and local Himalayans orogeny.

One final note. I am very skeptical about the so-called "tesan" claims, as most of those descriptions we observe in our specimens anyway. Importing plants is always risky, and severely limited by USDA regulations. Know them thoroughly before deciding to take a gamble. I personally doubt the tesan claims.

banana joe · Post by **banana joe** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:18 pm

I have also been growing hardy palms for the past two decades and propagating them by thousands for the past 15 years. R.hystrix is with out a doubt the hardiest bush typespecies then I would have to say S.minor. Both of these palms do prefer higher Summer heat. I have these growing in my garden here at 48 degrees north latitude. I have Two R.hystrix in the ground, one I grew from seed collected in Alabama and I planted it in 1993. The other I planted a few years ago from a 7 gallon size. My oldest S.minor is full of flower spikes, but is a lower growing blue form. I also have the regular green forms in the ground as well. My oldest was shipped to me as a seedling in 1990 from a friend of mine in Tennessee. In the R.hystrix natural habitat of the south eastern U.S. they can be found growing in dappled light or more shaded positions. However as the latitude increases they can be planted in more to full sun. At our latitude full sun is best, however one specimen I grow in more shade with C.radicalis and it has done very well, but grown at a slow pace. As for the arborescent palms, T.fortunei is a big hit among most northern experimenters because it is so readily available. The coldest temps. I have heard of mature T.fortunei surviving unprotected was -23 Celsius with complete defoliation, but to regrow new fronds when the warmer weather returned. I believe the hardiest in the genus is T.takil and not quite as common in cultivation, but in the last several years has become more popular. I have several of these in my garden and so does my neighbor and in the past 7 years it has grown quite rapid, considering they were all planted out as one leaf size seedlings in 1999. Their hardiness is understandable since they grow in a native habitat up to 8,000' ft. on cool north east facing slopes of the Himalayas. T.wagnerianus is also very cold tolerant, but not as much as T.fortunei. It is more wind resistant with it's stiffer smaller fronds. I have many Trachycarpus species I am currently experimenting with and they include T.nanus, T.princeps, T.manipur and T.latisectus. I had a nice T.martianus, but lost it to -6.1 C. two Winters ago. Brahea edulis is hardier in my opinion. I planted my Brahea edulis in Oct. 1995 and it is thriving. I also have some very nice hybrid Trachycarpus palms out in the garden for more than a decade now and they thrive. It is always fun to experiment! Cheers, Banana Joe

banana joe · Post by **banana joe** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:23 pm

Over the years I have exchanged seeds with Kiril in Bulgaria. I do have Bulgarian strain growing in the garden, but our winters are never really cold enough to put it to the test. I also have many W.filifera palms I grew from seed that Kiril sent me. So far they have survived out a couple of Winters and they are still small. It is more the dampness that gets them before the cold in our climate. Joe

Pilgerodendron · Post by **Pilgerodendron** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:59 pm

Hi Joe - JohnCO5b!

The takil as they looked a few days ago - well after the stiff early December cold test!

Joe, have you tried growing Phoenix theophrasti yet? I am increasingly interested in testing this palm, and plans are under way to do so. I suspect it might be the most cold tolerant feather palm, especially if kept dry. Native populations relatively high altitude in Atlas mountains, and possibly as cold tolerant, or more so than C. humilis.

Okanagan desert-palms · Post by **Okanagan desert-palms** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:36 pm

Pilgerodendron that is a wealth of information regarding replacing fronds after defoliation. I believe I have seen your site regarding palm experiments zone 5b Colorado. I keep reading over and over that it is the T.fortunei sp. that is the most reliable cold hardy Trachy sp.The adaptability that you mentioned regarding cell wall enlargement to protect against lethal freeze damage is "GREAT"news to anybody under zone 7. Thank you for your insight.

John

banana joe · Post by **banana joe** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:45 pm

John, The first time I heard of this palm was in the late 1980's. A good friend of mine and I imported some cold hardy palms from Southern California. I purchased Serenoa repens, Nanorrhops r. and Jubaea chilensis. He imported Phoenix theophrasti , Butia c. and S.minor. That was in 1989.Unfortunely the P.theophrasti ddin't pan out to be as hardy as they claimed, at least not in our damp winter climate. However in a drier climate it may work just fine. Chamaerops h. have no problem here what so ever. I do have a friend here with a Theophrasti in a pot out on his sundeck and he will be planting in the future I'm sure. I bet in a climate such as St.George, Utah P. theophrasti may have a chance if it was planted large enough. I really don't know that palms's true hardiness. I believe they are native to Turkey. Cheers, Joe

garrytsen · Post by **garrytsen** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:31 am

Somebody gets no idea about T.fortunei cv Tesan and even doubts its existence .The truth is that T.fortunei cv Tesan is the only palm that is living in Beijing,China -4F (-20C minimum,zone 5-6), north Yellow River,China whereas T.forunei can only grow in the south of Yellow River.All of this knowlegde is for science promotion and let all the palm enthusiasts know T.fortunei cv Tesan is.

T. fortunei cv tesan was a new cultivation varigated species,that is never seen outside of China and rarely seen even in China. It was first experimented in Jiangsu (zone 7) in 1970 and proved to bear the cold temperature 5F (-15C)and our domestication in Beijing proved that they were able to stand -4F (-20C minimum,zone 5-6) and so some people even call them Beijing Palm as this is the cold hardiest palm that are growing north Yellow River in China. But the number of the this palm is not many as the cultivation costs are high and many foreign palms came to China greatly affecting the local palm sales and few will take the challenge to grow them. Right now the palms are growing in the branch farm located in Kongsou (-15C) .After 15 years cultivation, some palm even grow to 4 m trunk height. But they have distinct features from T. fortunei.

Difference between T.fortunei cv Tesan and T.fortunei showing by pics

1. shorter petioles than T.fortunei , it is judged in a comparative sense.
2. stronger trunk than T.fortunei , normally T.fotunei in China is thin whereas T.fortunei cv Tesan is much stronger comparatively.
3. the big difference - better cold hardiness (-4F/-20C) than T.fortunei (5F/-15C) , T.fortunei cv Tesan can grow north Yellow River like Beijing (zone6-7) while T.fortunei are growing in south Yellow River .This is proved by many experiments of the research Institute
4. powder-like wax or fuzza on the seeds which is rarely seen on the seeds of T.fortunei or leaves when young
check the attached pics
5. thicker fiber air layer
Those who wanna know more details abou this new palm, send your inquiry to my email cnnursery@yahoo.com

Garry

www.coldplant.com

merrill · Post by **merrill** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:20 am

I agree that Needle palms are very hardy, but the only one I've lost to the cold had lost all the trunk covering. It had about 15 inches of completely clear trunk and, BTW, the only completely clear trunk I've ever seen on them. OTOH, other Needles with still-covered trunks survived 30 years in the same location, as did S. minor, S. etonia, and common windmills.
Best Wishes,
merrill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:16 pm

I don't think anyones data compares with the research from Co springs Co. but I don't get him saying he does not go along with the findings on Tesan. First he said his palms survived -15 or at least -11 and then he says he does not believeTesan claim of -4,Tesan is a form of fortunei so it would be hardy to -15 if fortunei is that hardy,what I think should be focused on with Tesan(because it is going to be at least as hardy as fortunei anyway)is the extremely unique growth habit of these palms from a very young age!they are a more robust and stouter version of fortunei which is very desirable in a Trachy,I think it will end up being discovered that cold hardiness is as cold hardiness does when it comes to Trachys,the order with maybe a slight edge to waggies is probably Wagnerianus,Takil-Tesan-Fortunei and not in a particular order although I think waggies are the toughest from what I have seen so far,they seem to have a tighter crown area,who knows about Takil?I think very,very few can say they actually have one.Fortunei is proven to have survived from -10 to -20 when mature and well established,I think Tesan,Takil and Wagnerianus could too but have not heard of any mature plants(Takil-Wagnerianus) surviving this yet,I think the real question is can any trachycarpus survive prolonged zone 5 cold and survive?can they take -15 and live if the temps remain below freezing for 2 more weeks?I have not seen any info on prolonged cold,in most cases the weather"warmed" back up after these events.

Barrie · Post by **Barrie** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:44 pm

Welcome aboard merrill ... You mention a needle palm that had "lost all of the trunk covering" How did this come to be with it's defensive armament? Obviously a necessary requirement in cold weather defense as pointed out in your experiment. Proof you can still lose hardy palms in Florida.

Cheers, Barrie.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:21 am

Gary,
I know that you're selling the seeds, and I am going to reassert my skepticism on Tesan. First off, MANY people have made claims of survival and even thriving palms is cold zone areas (and, indeed some of these have proven marginally hardier). I will be very happy if it can be proven that your 'tesan' strain of fortunei can handle cold better... As of yet, it is still in the realm of the other polar palms where extrodinary claims of hardiness are made but not substantiated. You can't blame me for being skeptical, afterall the only information we have to go on is that which you yourself are giving us! I have seen nothing from a third party source that would lead me to believe it is something different.

Here is an easy way to take some of the mystery out fo your palms (and will likely also increase sales):
1) Give us examples of the palms in habitat (i.e. in beijing)
2) Give us the raw temerature data to show that the palms experience temperatures down to below -20C and sustained subfreezing cold (there are many examples of Trachycarpus handling cold to below -10f (-12f) if the cold is brief and dry). I know that the average low in beijing in the winter is 15f, but what I don't know is what the temperatures are like in the city itself...
3) A picture of the thermometer with the palm showing the temperature is below -20C.

This shouldn't be too difficult. You could also submit one of the palms to a reasearcher to see what sort of temperatures it can handle in the lab. If this has been done you can also send me the pdf file and I'll gladly have it translated. I'm sure that Dr. Hirsh would be willing to test tesan as well... If you send me dry leaf tissue I can also have some of the rapidly evovling genes or intergenic spacers sequenced to see if they are different from fortunei. Not likely, but if they are it could lend crdiility to your theory. I don't mind doing this, in fact I do it for a living (with other plants). You can send me a pm.

John, Good to hear from you, I think the picture you sent was of a smashed up car... If you're still doing the palm testing, I suggest you try some of Banana Joe's waggy x forunei seedlings, they seem to be the only Trachycarpus that is standing up to the cold in Niagara, Ontario (zone 6b). I'm looking forward to this season when I'm going to plant out about 50 of them in my zone 5a climate just to see! Or perhaps I should say 'see how quickly they perish'! Can you give me an idea of the size change in the cell wall structure after cold damage, I would like to check to see if that poor little Trachy I've been tortureing for the past 2 years has responded to defoliation by increaseing its cell wall thickness...

Joe, I've started a bunch of wild collected Wahingtonia filifera 'Moapa' palms from seed. I was hoping you'd be willing to try one (or a few) on Salt Spring once they've germinated? I'd like to know if there is any performace difference between this wild strain and others. http://www.xeri.com/Moapa/wf-hr-part1.htm if you have time to read it.

Cheers,
Paul Ont 5a

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:01 pm

Paul,I don't have any problem with Garrys claims except that he uses the 5F mark for hardiness of fortunei and then -5 for tesan,so I guess just going by the math he is implying that Tesan is approx 10F hardier than fortunei and grows in zone 6/7 but these zones are so variable I mean I am in the same zone basically as Co.springs but the weather is very different!johnco5b stated that trachys outpreformed tests done in the lab so I'm not sure a straight up lab test is the answer unless tesan showed to be much more hardy in the actual test,as far as testing the leaves go I have a connection to some Tesan palms with a few fans going,probably the most mature palms of this type in the states as far as I know and I could send you some fan leaves at the end of the growing season if you could get them tested that way or if you want I will give you the contact info and you can order a few,(they are from a private seller who got seeds a few years ago).
In Johns experiments in Co he mentioned that the trachys adapted to cold with more exposure,I wonder if it wasn't a combination of the palms maturing and adapting,I have noticed in Sabals that their strap leaves are nowhere near as resistant to cold as the fans which on my S.louisiana are completly undamaged as opposed to the strap leaves that are fried(except on brazoria,go figure)anyway if you don't want to get some tesan from this guy I will send you some leaves from tesan in the fall when they are more mature if that will work.Its interesting you brought up fortxwag I have 3(had 1 died)fortxwags,1 was not very healthy and was killed by a combo of .75"of rain and 18F temps that followed 70s in early Nov of last fall,of the 2 that lived one had spear pull(and is still solid and healthy) and another in the ground a year longer is fine and still growing,the reason I think its interesting that you brought up this X variety because Tesan has a similar growth habit,stouter trunk,more "fur"smaller leaves and shorter petioles! I recpect your opinion and would be interested in your further comments-take care

PalmsNorth.com

Cold Hardiest Palm Trees!!!

Cold Hardiest Palm Trees!!!

Hardiest palms?

Hardiest palms?

Polar palm

Cold tolerance observations of Trachycarpus in Zone 5b

Good info.

Bulgarian Trachycarpus

Phoenix theophrasti

What is T.fortunei cv Tesan?

Cold hardiness of Needle Palms.

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