Hardy palms in Maryland

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:43 am

Hello everyone. I have had an account here for a few months but have never actually posted anything. My name is Jim, and I am growing 3 palms in my yard. 1 needle palm and 2 dwarf palmettos. The needle palm is on the southeast side of my house, and the 2 Sabal Minors are growing next to each other in my yard away from my house on the northwest side, albeit shielded by a row of large spruce trees. The dwarf palmettos seem to be healthier than my needle palm, although both have proven to be quite hardy here with only mulching used as protection. On my Needle Palm, there is a brown spot that has grown on where it's second-newest emerging leaf segments. I am afraid it might be rot. Should I buy a fungicide? Also, have you all noticed how these hardy palms will curl up their leaves in really cold weather just like Yucca Filamentosa (sp?) does? I find that really interesting. -Jim

tropicman · Post by **tropicman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:13 pm

Welcome Jim
What size are your palmettos,wouldn't think they could make it outdoors that far north without protection with heat source.
How long have you had them in the ground,I have some 2 yr old seedlings I was thinking about planting here.
Don

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:37 pm

They came together in a pretty big container, I don't recall the size but it was between 10 and 20 gallons. I'd say they're around 3 feet tall. It usually doesn't get too cold in the winter here; we average highs in the 40s and lows in the 20s; old USDA map I'm borderline 6b/7a, but it rarely gets below about 5 here. I'd say that I'm in zone 7. The palms haven't seen temps lower than the mid-teens yet, however.

tropicman · Post by **tropicman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:43 pm

I'm running about the same zone as you,but have reached -1 so far,but tend to colder longer than you,seems like its been a week of not much sunshine here and temps below freezing,about how far are you away from the Atlantic ocean?

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:22 pm

Jim

If there is green under the discoloration
it may just be from the spear temporarily
halting growth-a picture would help out a lot.

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:25 pm

I'm about 20 miles or so west of the Chesapeake bay. From the ocean, I'd say about 80 miles if you travelled off-road directly east. The climate here is moderated by it, but not as much as it is in the counties to the east of here. A horrible week long cold snap is coming starting tomorrow. I really wish I could grow Sabal Palmetto up here, but from everything I've read, the winters are too cold. Have you been able to grow any palms with minimum protection over there?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:33 pm

hi, jimmiller, welcome aboard.

Zone 7...wow, what I'd give...

We need to see a pic of that brown spot, probably nothing serious...(famous last words.

)

Pictures, pictures, and more pictures please!

Here's to your cold spell not lasting long. :lickice:

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:41 pm

Jim,
welcome!
needle palm and the dwarf palmetto (Sabal minor) are great choices. I think they look good, and very tough. I am giving mine protection with deep mulch and cover as this is their first winter. We'll get down to about 7 oF Friday morning after snow tomorrow.
As Barb said, we like photos here.

--Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:47 am

Also, have you all noticed how these hardy palms will curl up their leaves in really cold weather

plant response to conserve cell moisture.

Yippee, another yucca lover too!
You'll go ga ga over some of the pics in the Yucca postings.

Barb

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:46 pm

I took pictures on my iPhone, but I can't upload them since this thing doesn't have flash. I do have some on my computer; I'll upload them soon. It's supposed to get down to 12 degrees tomorrow night, the coldest these palms will have experienced so far. Nice to meet all of you, btw. Thinking of trying a windmill palm this spring; how does this palm compare in foliar hardiness to the needle palm and the dwarf palmetto?

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:10 pm

Okay, I pulled some pictures of my palms off of my girlfriend's facebook. In the center of the close-up picture of the needle palm, you can see the browning that has occurred. What should I do about this? I also put in some pictures of my dwarf palmettos that are literally right next to each other (it looks like 1 plant).

TimMAz6 · Post by **TimMAz6** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:25 pm

nice palms Jim. My brother lives in Fairfax, VA and is growing S. minors and Needle palms. The Trachies have a harder time growing there.....he has lost a few but still has a couple survivors. Plant Big Trachies as spear pull will be less common with larger specimens. Good luck and keep us posted on your palms.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:53 pm

Jim, thanks for posting the pictures, good to see your stuff (and the dog!

)

If those spots on the close-up were orange/necrotic, it'd be a sure sign of a nutrient deficiency.
Your original post said the spots were on the second newest spear?
From today's picture, looks like it's on the spear, and is that spear pushing now?

For it to be pushing in the winter, did you fertilize late in the year (i.e. September?)

Maybe "hardyJim" will chime in here, he'll know.

I'd throw a tarp or blanket over 'em for the coming cold.

Ditto Tim's advice, with this addition: all palms do better with some protection the first winter or two until the roots are better established.

Good looking palms!
Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 pm

Jim,
nice dogs--and nice palms!
Barb,
any guess on which nutrient might be deficient?
--Erik

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:21 pm

It's not those spots that I'm overly concerned about. It's more that where the frond splits to form it's palmate appearance. Here's an analogy: If the leaf were a hand, the beginning of the thumb to the knuckle is brown, from the knuckle to the tip, it's green. The brown area has caused the "thumb" to hang away from the rest of the frond. I never once fertilized any of my palms. I planted them in early June and watered them regularly. I stopped watering them in November once I mulched them to protect their roots. I didn't want to fertilize them because I read somewhere that doing so too late could make them less cold-hardy. I did originally plan on protecting these palms for the first winter, but decided to see what would happen if I just mulched them; kind of an experiment. Is there anything I need to do in the spring to ensure good health for these plants?

-Jim

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:43 pm

For a windmill palm, I wouldn't be confident enough to grow it here without protection during it's first year. I'm actually scared that I'd mess up and cause more harm than leaving them unprotected. If my experiment fails, I will definitely protect the new palms I would get. I have family that lives in Texas between Dallas and Houston; 7 years ago, my aunt brought up a cedar tree, a prickly pear cactus (which I have many of), and some kind of yucca. I planted all 3 of these plants new year's day 2004 and all 3 have survived to this day. I know that's bad gardening, but I was just a teenager back then and didn't really know any better. The yucca has a deep greenish color with a hint of blue. It grew a 2 foot tall trunk and flowered this summer, but it was either chewed on or too heavy because it collapsed in September. Luckily, there are 2 offshoots that emerged this past summer. Sorry that was way off topic, but I thought you guys might enjoy a random gardenig tidbit.

-Jim

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:50 pm

Jim, excellent analogy.
Since the brown segment on the "thumb" is closest to what is the "apical meristem" (the bud), that means that the green on the rest of the thumb simply hasn't browned yet but it will. If it were the other way around, the "nail" of the thumb, that's OK because the part closest to the bud (where the petiole pushes up) is still healthy.

I'm frankly surprised you've got that spear at that stage in January.
You watered until November?????

The trick generally is to water the blazes out of palms (the ones that like water like Sabal, Trachy, etc) until about August or early Sept., and then slowly start to dry them up by withholding it, earlier if your area gets a ton of rain in the Fall (like Vancouver on the Coast). In Vancouver, people build rainshelters over young Trachies (like a carport) just to keep the rain off them, though certainly the ground around them is saturated.

Since you planted them in June, "a palm special" fertilizer could have been applied then, again lightly every two or three weeks until early August (in my area), then no more.

I wouldn't even think about spring plans, that spear will likely pull.
But no panic.
You've got cold coming, you said. If you've got some fungicide, pour that onto the "thumb" frond during the day when the weather's milder.
I'd cover that "brown thumb spear" lightly with burlap wrapped around several times, then cover the whole palm in some kind of waterproof "hat", like a tarp. Pound a couple or three broomhandles into the ground so the tarp doesn't crush the fronds. Remove cover(s) completely as temps go above freezing, reapply at night or before rain.

I sure wish hardyjim would chime in here...he is the "spear pull king".
And where my advice differs from Jim's, go with Jim's instructions.

And while I was typing this, there's a new post so I'll close this.

And Erik...the spots are brown, so not nutrient deficiency.
If they were smallish orange spots, changing to necrotic, that'd be potash deficiency.
Even after a good potash application the leaves with the orange spots will never recover but that's ok, they'll be shed naturally later anyway.

Barb

Okanagan desert-palms · Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:30 pm

Welcome to the cold hardiest palm,yucca,cactus,forum on the net.

John

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:35 pm

I could not see the pictures,maybe someone could copy and paste?

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Today, the pics failed "cannot connect to database"

and this time I know it's not my mouse batteries.

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:09 pm

Looks like the server that hosts the images is down. On another note, I got scared for my needle palm since it is still young and the temperature is supposed to get down to 6 degrees tonight, so I wrapped it's trunk with an old hand towel. Better than nothing, right? The needle palm is on the southeast side of my house, it's right next to the bottom of the chimney, and we've got a fire going tonight. I hope that adds at least a little something. I actually planted the hardier of my palms in the warmer location because I want it to be able to survive very any kind of winter, even if it's one of those once in a hundred year kind of debacles. I like the broomhandle and tarp idea to keep moisture out. It'll be fun getting those things into the frozen ground

By the way, what do you all use to put pictures up? I was just using this forum's default service...

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:29 am

A towel isn't enough.
It'll get soaked/frozen solid if it snows which keeps moisture in the palm's spear area.
THAT you want to prevent at all costs.

I suggested wrapping the spear area to keep it warmer, but then overwrapping that with something that'll keep moisture OUT completely.

getting those things into the frozen ground

Stability can be achieved by broomhandles, or short 2x4s, etc. by forming a teepee, which is tied at top with string, keeping the shape.
A tarp can then be thrown over the teepee, with sides held firm with stones/bricks.

Palms North has free photo hosting, you can use the PN Search bar .
My pics are all on a paid Flickr account, before PN image hosting became available.

Good luck with the cold...
Barb

saltydad · Post by **saltydad** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:49 pm

Can you give us an update on how your palms did this winter? My needles perversely did much worse than my trachys. I even have a C. humilis that made it!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:44 pm

Yeah, I'm curious too, Jimmiller.
Hope they're fine.

Welcome aboard, saltydad.
Nice to have you with us!

Looking forward to seeing your stuff.

Barb

Cameron_z6a_N.S. · Post by **Cameron_z6a_N.S.** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:51 pm

welcome to the forum!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:31 am

Either jimmiller is really busy or he forgot to select "notify by email of responses to posts" in his profile.

Good reminder...

Barb

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:13 am

Barb,
maybe you can PM him in case he gets email notifications of that.
Salty,
welcome!
My (covered but unheated) needles and Trachy did comparably well--on average. Lost one needle but one looks perfect, whereas all three Trachy look miserable but are alive and growing. I hope to get one more of each. --Erik

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:52 am

Erik, done.

Glad your Trachies are alive, Erik.
Can't understand why the needle croaked!

Barb

jimmiller · Post by **jimmiller** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:03 pm

Hey everyone,

I posted a topic about how my palms fared over the winter in the cold hardy palms section of this forum.

viewtopic.php?t=3605

My needle palm is all but dead, but my dwarf palmetto lives on. I think the fact that the dwarf palmetto was so much larger than the needle palm helped it survive the winter. It did experience some leaf burn, but it still looks pretty good as of now (4/18). I haven't been out to Lowes/Home Depot lately to see if they have any windmill palms yet. I know there are much better places to get cold hardy palms from, but the local home improvement stores sell them for relatively cheap prices.

I hope everyone's palms are doing well,
Jim

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:08 pm

Oops, of course you did!

Maybe the needle will recover, don't rip it out yet.
I've waited until June to see if something came up (it didn't on the NainiTal)...

Looking forward to seeing any Trachies you get.
Barb

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:23 pm

A close up of the area is needed.

Welcome