Weirdly varying ridge of Trachycarpus fortunei "Winsan&

[garryendson]

This is a repetition of posting on EPS unrevolved and that is why I put it here seeking some ideas.

I just cann't believe my eyes after checking a couple of my Trachycarpus fortunei "winsan" whose new spears are about 10cm long.

I found last year some winsan with 3 ridges and Jim said it could be the upsidedown of 2 ridges.It just confused me that Wisan may not have 2 ridges.
So I pay extreme attention to its number this year.

Before I go into the subject, let me explain something.
Yes it is possible that we could confuse the upper side with the lowe rside of the leave.But,there is one easy way to distinguish between them. The " real" upperside is the side where the brown sheath is and plus it has fewer ridges than the lower side. Say, regular Trachycarpus has 4 ridges on its upperside but the lowerside must have 5 ridges whereas T.princeps has 2 ridges on the upperside and 3 ridges on the lowerside.However, few trachycarpus could for some reason turn the upperside down and so we could see 5 ridges at the "upperside" and 4 ridges at the "lowerside"

What took me by surprise regarding the riges on Winsan I checked today is the ridge number range from 3-6. It sounds really crazy and absolutely confusing to me.
The following is the result of my observation.

1) 10 winsan have 4 ridges at the upperside and 5 ridges at the lowerside like we normally see.

2) 1 Winsan has 3 ridges at the upperside and 4 ridges at the lowerside
3 at the upperside


4 at the lowerside



3) 2 winsan have 5 ridges at the upperside and 6 ridges at the lowerside ,
The following is a winsan whose upper side is upside down,that is why I gotta distort it to check its ridge ,but according to the differentiating method above, we can easily tell which side is the real upperside.
5 ridges at the upperside which is however upside down


6 ridges at the lowerside which is distorted as lowerside up


4) 2 Winsan have 6 ridges at the upperside and 7 ridges at the lowerside.
6 ridges at the upperside


7 ridges at the lowerside


5) like T.fortunei, T.princeps-green(Nova) with 4 ridges at the upperside and 5 ridges at the lowerside


6) T.princeps with 2 ridges at the upperside of the leave and 3 ridges at the lowerside

[garryendson]

I've noticed that my Winsan seedlings are curling a little bit after one Dutch friend told me this.
The strap leaves of Winsan measure up to 22cm and even 30cm in length I saw last year whereas those of T.fortunei (Tesan form)are normally 10-15cm.
My earliest trial with seedlings grown from seeds in 2009 show that they are exhibiting amazing growth vigor and speed like Nova, with all their parts larger than T.fortunei. This is the first time I have seen a second kind of Trachycarpus demonstrate such vigor other than Nova. The trunks of Winsan, Nova and Tesan ,the same age are now 10-14cm and 10-15cm and 4-5cm tall respectively since Spring 2009.
I am not sure if this is because of a variant or hybrid vigor.
But the difference is that the leaflets of Winsan seedling are wider and irregularly divided with gray leaf backsides whereas Nova are narrow and evenly divided with glossy and green backsides.
It is is a pity that the seedlings have not yet shown circular leaves as the mother palms from which the seeds were tentatively collected in late 2008 after years of search.

Plus, the most weird thing for Winsan is the varying ridge number at upperside of the first leaf shifts from 3,4,5 to 6 which is not seen in Trachycarpus , a phenomenon difficult to explain.

For more photos of mother Winsan, check the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/18211312@N ... 877141333/









3 Winsan with curling leaf on the left and 3 tesan on the right.

[Paul Ont]

Gary- This sort of plays to my idea that the number of ridges isn't really a good indicator of species in Trachycarpus... Also- those are some BIG first leaves on those ex-wisan seedlings, interesting stuff!

[garryendson]

Paul, ridge number is an effective and useful indicator to tell the current available trachycarpus species or variants officially or inofficially recognized. Say T.fortunei ,geminisectus as well as waggy and Nova all have 4 ones whereas T.princeps ,nanus ,manipur ,oreophilus and takil,etc all have 2. But Winsan have 3,5,6 on their first strap leaves ,other than 4 which for the first time expands my preconceived ideas and understanding about trachycarpus in this respect. Like the seeds were tentatively collected after searching years and as the mother palms have circular leaves, it lends me to think if the offspring are like the parents which is not yet shown though. The weird ridge number of the seedling took me by surprise. I began to think that they might be different from standard T.fortunei and later the initial result that the seedlings of 1.5 years old BOTH in the field AND in pots are ALL growing like rockets with all larger parts than T.fortunei (Tesan form) verifies my assumption that they might be a variant which some people thought otherwise.
The desired feature of circular leaves for which the seeds were tentatively searched and collected is not yet on display probably because of the interference of T.fortunei nearby. Anyhow still it is an exciting and rewarding trial and exploration to find such a new different form no matter whatever they are, variant or hybrid. Maybe some more time is needed to obtain a final rather than transitional form perfectly preserving such feature which I still believe is a naturally genetic expression, but not necessary a response to the shade as it occurs to palms in the open sunny space like the mother Winsan from which seeds were collected.

The following photos show the difference of the same aged seedlings of 1.5 years old except that Princeps is 3 months older.

With regard to the leaves of the different forms , we can tell Princeps and nova fall into the same category by evenly divided leaves whereas Winsan and Tesan are of the same style by their irregularly divided leaflets. But leaves of Winsan and nova are much larger and longer than their counterparts which coincides with the seedling growth result that Nova and winsan are of over 10cm trunk and tesan and princeps of similar age around 5cm.





All three except Princeps show glossy upper leaf surface which indicates that there is some white powder to princeps.
But the underside comparison demonstrates that princeps is white,Winsan gray ,Tesan and Nova glossy green.
It is noted that these photos were taken at night when camera flash can better capture whether there is white powder on the leaves based on the fact that the leaves without powder glitter and those with powder show gray or silver or white tinge depending on its density.

[hardyjim]

I think that makes sense Garry,that there may be something to Winsan.
Are they only 3-5-6 ridgers on Winsan?


Manipur is the other 2 ridger,not Martianus-I'm sure you knew that

[garryendson]

Jim,
Winsan have 4 ridges but some have 3 or 6 and mostly 5 ones as well.
Just correct the wrong typing. Thank you for reminding me of the error. Yes I saw Manipur seedling on EPS.
It seems to me the trachycarpus originally growing in the stony mountain tend to have narrow seedling leave with 2 ridges.
Maybe it is a response to the dry and sterile growing condition?

[hardyjim]

Yea Garry

Not sure about the 2 ridger vs 4-5-6 trait or what ever.

I think it is great that people are keeping track of this from
an early age as it may help shed some light on some of the variables in these palms

[TerdalFarm]

I know I am repeating myself, but I think we need DNA from the various Trachycarpus forms. We just need to find a botany grad. student in need of a project....
--Erik

[garryendson]

It seems that there is no comprehensive study in this field about these species or varieties.I once read a German article years ago which dealt with this ,but failed to find the DNA differences among the officially recognized varieties like fortunei. princeps, nanus ,manipur and takil,etc. Maybe one day there gotta be some professionals who would handle this issue which is definitely instructive and meaningful. But before that, it wont affect our appreciation of these fascinating morphological variations of Trachycaprus we as growers can tell easily apart from each other with eyes rather than DNA . Like Nova which was conceived to be T.princeps, the later result demonstrated that they are a different form from T.fortunei and T.princeps ,though not officially acknowledged. Its unique long evenly split leaflets , stretched trunk and petioles as well as the unparalleled growth rate set them apart from other trachycarpus.It should be quite interesting to do a DNA analysis about its relationship with T.princeps and T.fortunei as well.
Relevant info :
viewtopic.php?t=2842
http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php ... ntry406942

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, Garry. I am learning a lot from your threads and the excellent photos to post.
I only have T. fortunei (x3) and T. "Wagnerianus" (x2) in the ground, plus a pot-planted little "Takil" (presumably really Naini Tal). I don't think the other Trachycarpus could survive my winters (low of -16oC so far in 2010); none much like my Summers, either (high of 41oC so far in 2010). So, I'll keep learning about the rest of the genus from your threads. --Erik

[hardyjim]

"Like Nova which was conceived to be T.princeps, the later result demonstrated that they are a different form from T.fortunei and T.princeps" ,

But also similar to both!

[garryendson]

Erik,
Based on what I learned on the web, one guy said that the Juvenile T.princeps of about 40cm trunk withstood -15C without protection in 2008 and even colder temperature last year in Netherlands ( "Both my 'larger' fortuneis are probably dead, but the best news is that my princeps definitely survived!!")
http://www.cemunnos.nl/forum/index.php? ... 2&pageNo=1
and T.princeps are doing well in full sun as many reported. Likewise recently Marc from Netherlands shared his experience on EPS saying that his Nova survived the latest 2 severe winters ,one of -19C and the other of -14C.
http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/top ... opicpage=3
Plus, this German Guy sowed and grew different species directly in the ground all through the whole winter, I am surprised to know that T.princeps and Tesan are doing ok, Winsan some damage and Nova fine, you may check to learn some more.
http://www.exotenwiese.de/index2.html

Life is full of surprises and joys if we explore it. Jim is one of those cool initiative guys who's been courageously trying growing different palms in Iowa,probably the limit of cultivated palm distribution.

Yes Jim, Nova have evenly split leaflets like T.princeps, different from the irregularly ones of T.fortunei, and their hair is similar to latter.
What is interesting is Nova's uniqueness of stretched trunk and petioles as well as the fast growth speed either species can not match.

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, Garry!
You've given us a lot to think about. I think most of us novice palm growers do not even consider most of the Trachycarpus genus. --Erik

[hardyjim]

Nova is a fascinating palm for sure!

I am a believer that this is FortuneixPrinceps,I have some of the Nova from you Garry and also a stouter palm sold as Nova-
it does not however have the long petioles and stretched out growth of Nova but resembles a green Princeps at an early age-
this is possibly another variation in the Nova bloodline.