Pushing the limits of cold hardiness..

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:59 am

If you do plant Castor seeds now they need maximum sun or they will get leggy.

They also have no tolerance for cold,esp when small so be careful.

I like to get a jump on these too but have found it problematic unless you have a g-house-
they love warmth.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:47 pm

This is my fargesia rufa. Just unbudried it today. The snow was melting too much, and it was icing, and weighing it down.... But its ALIVE MUHAHHAHA ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

This is what i did, after. I put the peaves back on. The ground is fairly frozen. But the snow has been melting and freezing.

I deciided to put the plastic back over it, and put some snow down to weigh it down. Since the snow is melting, and freezing.... im going to put some old shirts around the perimiter, to help soak up some of the water.....

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:24 pm

canadianplant wrote:

This is my fargesia rufa. Just unbudried it today. The snow was melting too much, and it was icing, and weighing it down.... But its ALIVE MUHAHHAHA ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

This is what i did, after. I put the peaves back on. The ground is fairly frozen. But the snow has been melting and freezing.

I deciided to put the plastic back over it, and put some snow down to weigh it down. Since the snow is melting, and freezing.... im going to put some old shirts around the perimiter, to help soak up some of the water.....

Good move covering it back up! It certainly hasn't been exposed to temps below -18C!!! You should try some of the hardier Phyllostachys with the same protection method! Nice work!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:50 pm

It looks completely untouched by winter cold...nice!

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:54 pm

Love your protection! Where there's a will there's a way. Look into the ground heating cables in my washy post, it will really help from keeping the ground from freezing. This will be the next step in keeping Non hardy things alive through winter Even washy robustas right Paul

LOL!

Bill

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:53 am

Bill- This far north I just use heat cables to keep my Sabal and Rhapidophyllum alive (and the ground in their enclosure from freezing.)... I have some W. filifera seedlings that I'll be planting out not this spring but next!

Oh, and Canadapalms, did you get a chance to check out my crunchy bamboo post... It shows what happens at -22C when the culms are left without snow cover!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:42 pm

Today i unburied it. I took all the leaves off of it ( it ended up being ar 5C today, but more like 12 C where the bamboo is.) and let it soak up some sun. I lefet a 2 inch layer of leaves around. I put some old cloths around, just to soak up some of the water around. I also took all he snow from around it as best as I could.. I filled up 2 garbage bags of leaves, and am going to ut them aroudn the bamboo at night, and drape the plastic on it. Heres what it looked like a few minutes after un burying it.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:30 pm

BEAUTIFUL! If only we could all get that sort of result from our own winter protection schemes!

The more I see of this, the more I believe that overwintering bamboo in anything less than a true USDA zone 6 requires good mulch and relaible snow cover... Except, of course, in places where the freezes are short lived, like in Tennessee or Colorado!

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:38 pm

Paul,
his bamboo looks MUCH better than mine does, down here at 36oN.
Well done!
--Erik

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:49 pm

Erik
Leave your chickens in there next winter to keep it warm

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:07 pm

The bamboo had plenty of chicken love this winter. It wasn't covered (like the large Butia, AKA the dog house) or partially sheltered from winds like the Trachy (the chickens spent each morning there in the dawn sun).
No, I put compost as warm mulch over the poor bamboo roots. The chickens scratched through that looking for food and so scattering the protection. I eventually put enough horse manure on that even they couldn't scatter it all.
I saw a hen eating flower buds off my winter jasmine today; they keeping pecking at Colocasia roots, too. Its a love-hate relation. The wife and I are always scheming to fence the chickens out of the garden. So far they have always foiled our plans.

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:59 pm

I can't wait to watch the doghouse Butia explode with growth this year.

Be grateful you have chickens. Therefore you don't have nematoes/cutworms, tussock moth, mealyworms, codling moths, yucky icky spiders crawling into your boots, etc. etc.

oops, almost forgot.
I planted the peas and spinach in the garden today!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:42 am

Paul, I think the trick was that I totaly buried it before the ground froze. The temps were about -10C at night here, a night ot 2 at around -15C, and the dyas were around 0C to about 6C, then the night temps dropped in aa day to about -20C, after i buried it. IT was never exposed to heavy heavy frosts. Also, the night when the temps dropped, we got about20cm of snow.

It was good timing i think. I tried to wait until the new leaves stopped growing. Needless to say, i had to wait til lit slowed down conciderably. Astonishigly enough, it opend a few leaves while it was buried ( I can tell cause they are very small and not nearly as green as the others) which totaly blew me away, because it got ZERO sun for 3 months almost.

LOL terdal "chicken loce". Spiders are awsome to have if they are controled. They keep down the bugs. If you have some big trees, you might attract soem bats

which are even better.........

Lucky, i would really like to see that as well. A butia in OK :O lol. I know someone in MC who im tryiong to convice him to try em. With some afternoon shade, I think itll surive there. I wish I could start some things outside LOL my first frost date is technicaly june 1ST, so even for lettuce id have some time ti wait still

BUT my grandma said i can have free reign over her garden, and take what ever I want * VERY EVIL LAUGH. Gonna take some wisteria, mabey some other tings..... she has a nice chunk of clematis she said she has to dig up.... i have a perfect place for it

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:59 am

canadianplant wrote:Paul, I think the trick was that I totaly buried it before the ground froze. The temps were about -10C at night here, a night ot 2 at around -15C, and the dyas were around 0C to about 6C, then the night temps dropped in aa day to about -20C, after i buried it. IT was never exposed to heavy heavy frosts. Also, the night when the temps dropped, we got about20cm of snow.

It was good timing i think. I tried to wait until the new leaves stopped growing. Needless to say, i had to wait til lit slowed down conciderably. Astonishigly enough, it opend a few leaves while it was buried ( I can tell cause they are very small and not nearly as green as the others) which totaly blew me away, because it got ZERO sun for 3 months almost.

BUT my grandma said i can have free reign over her garden, and take what ever I want * VERY EVIL LAUGH. Gonna take some wisteria, mabey some other tings..... she has a nice chunk of clematis she said she has to dig up.... i have a perfect place for it

Again, that bamboo looks awesome. Erik- I would imagine that if you planted Fargesia rufa, it would look as good in spring... Unless, that is, it's as heat intolerant as other Fargesia!

Candianplant (sorry for the name mix-up last time), have you looked into any of the mail order places that I suggested? I am willing to supply you with cactus and other cuttings (provided you know how to root them!) but you really should look into places like nettlecreek, Hortico, etc. to find the plants that will form the backbone of the garden... Oh, and don't rule out Hosta, things like 'Sum and Substance' with huge leaves are very improtant to add that 'exotic' look!

What will you do with all the extra room?

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:20 am

I took a quick look at the sites.... im a bit picky

but now that i know my bamboo is like, practicly perfect, now I have a good benchmark of the microclimate in the front, and gives me a GOOD idea about some in the back. So, im definetly ordering a bamboo, and a musa basjoo this year, 100%. Beyond that... i have no Idea yet lol. I have no idea how to root cactus lol.

LOL more room, i have very little room to use. My back yard is like 100 feet long (the grass area), and only mabey 20 feet wide. The best thing is... the entire length on my house is south facing. So thats a really good microclimate. I still have to plant my passiflora. LOL

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Thanks for humoring my interjections into this otherwise fascinating thread. Here are brief replies to comments I made...
Chickens: they do a super job of insect, tick and chigger control. I have not put up bat houses, but we have a nice Summer bat population anyways for the flying insects.
Dog house Butia hut: I investigated how the heck the wireless thermometer recorded 91oF in there yesterday. Turned out the thermometer had been dislodged and the dogs were sleeping on it.

Bamboo choices: despite that, we do have very high heat here all Summer. I am planning on buying from the folks at "Amazing Gardens" ~100 miles away from here. I'll drive down the turnpike with my truck and some cash in a month or so. I'll rely on their judgments for palms and bamboos.
Planting: Barb, you're way ahead of my wife this year. Our soil is only up to 40oF so we'll wait a few weeks. I did put some students to work starting seeds indoors. The only seeds I've started this week are also indoors--Sabal "Birmingham."
Anyways, enough of me. Back to canadianplant's awesome garden plans!

lucky1 · Post by **lucky1** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:43 pm

Turned out the thermometer had been dislodged and the dogs were sleeping on it.

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:53 pm

LOL, nice malfunction haha

well, I think I am going to try and grow some Phyllostachys Nuda. I just cant find out too much into on it. How bad it clumps, how much ater it can take, how much sun and or heat? How bad will it rip up myhouse foundation??

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:23 pm

I'll have to try and take a few pictures of the bamboo clumps around here next nice day. I know of 3 enormous patches that
look totally beautiful every year green as can be in the winter to. On one of the patches the large on there about 25 feet high
and have green and yellow striped trunks. I'll get pictures for a better Id. The others are different but still huge. It's definitely
trying to take over which is kinda scary unless you can contain it. I'm going to trade some nanas for bamboo this year I think.

Paul how hard is it to dig up established bamboo?

Bill

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:46 pm

Im thinking of trying psylostachys nuda. Pretty sure itll do alright here

Also, im trying to find a source fer musa basjoo. I cant find anywhre that id trust to order them from. The most reliable place was on amazon.com... lol

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:20 am

OK i found a basjoo.... gotta wit till april damn it lol

Is anyone growing P. Nuda? or Psudosasa Japicica???

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:26 am

canadianplant wrote:OK i found a basjoo.... gotta wit till april damn it lol

Is anyone growing P. Nuda? or Psudosasa Japicica???

Cool! You can get basjoo at most nurseries around here... Going rate seems to be about 20 for a 2 gallon plant (got one on sale for 10 last year though).

I grow P. nuda. It's slow to size up and not nearly as cold hardy (for me anyway, and others have had similar experiences) as it is claimed to be. I'd say the foliage maintains green until maybe -18C to -20C, then browns rather quickly. The culms seem to be about as hardy as P. aureosulcata (maybe breif exposure to -22C - -25C won't kill them?). Again, it's slow to size up, so if you want a bamboo that will rocket skyward this isn't for you... The most vigourous for me, so far, has been P. aureosulcata 'alata' which is spreading about 2x faster than the others. P. aureosulcata 'specitbilis' also has received good hardiness ratings. I have a bunch of 5-7 gallon specimens that I will be planting this spring. I planted a small 2 gallon last year and anxiously await the results (though small bamboo plants are notoriously tender).

I've not tried Pseudosasa japonica. From what I've read it's not worth the effort in areas that routinely get below -18C. You might be alright with this one, however, if you bend the culms to the ground.

http://www.needmorebamboo.com/pseudosasapics.html

http://www.needmorebamboo.com/phynuda.html

http://www.needmorebamboo.com/spectabilispics.html

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:33 am

The japonica is 14.99 for a 1 gallon. Small plant for sure.. but tis cheap enough to cut it inhalf, and experinment....

Thats fine about the sizing up of the nuda... gives me some time to this of WTF to do with it lol

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:33 am

Here's another pic of P. nuda winter damage. This looks (to me) like partial top-kill. Low temp was -12F or -24.4C.

http://www.bambooweb.info/ShowPictures2 ... enus=*&s=3

Phyllostachys rubromarginata (also vigorous)...
http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... c00580.jpg
http://www.bambooweb.info/ShowPictures2 ... nus=*&s=21
http://www.bambooweb.info/ShowPictures2 ... nus=*&s=33
http://www.bambooweb.info/ShowPictures2 ... nus=*&s=32

P. bissettii after -17F (-28C):
http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... sApril.jpg

Interesting!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:37 pm

hmmm......... I still have somethinking to do lol. I like the nuda... not ust cause its root hardy to -31F apperantly, when nmultched. And i looks really good after a few years.

I like the japinica too cause its a runner... but not bad at all.

I think for my climate i might have to take hardiness over vigour for the time being...... that is... till next year... round 2 of experiments muahhaah

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:16 pm

hmmm. Here is A. gigantea 'Macon' after -24C. http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... _macon.JPG
Looks much better than a similarily established P. nuda, and yet they are rated the same!!! I don't know who decided that nuda is hardy to -31C. Maybe they were talking about root hardiness?

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:02 pm

"not ust cause its root hardy to -31F apperantly, when nmultched" - me

Yes lol thats what they mean......... but still... -31FF..... thats colder then it gets here

Ive been really tempted to try the macon.........

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:03 pm

Paul, are you registered to that website????? cause I havnt seen you on there.....

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:02 am

CP- You're making a very common mistake in saying things like "It never gets that cold here". If it's been that cold before, it can be again... If I'm able to get one point across, it's to be realistic. We all read the websites, read the books (GRRRR Francko... Worst offender for inflating plant hardiness figures, his palm numbers are, for the most part, accurate), and grow the plants. "Great, my P. nigra survived an overnight low of -20C in Tennessee, so the plant must be hardy to -20C"... Well, actually, it burns around -16/-17C up here, and will top-kill with temps below about -18C!

Second. We both know that bamboo roots can take damn near anything if they're mulched. You could probably grow them in Moose Factory if you mulched them well enough... This doesn't change the physiology of the plant. Most bamboo can not grow larger if they are continually whacked back to the ground. If they don't die the first year, they may the second or third. What this is, essentially, is the starvation of the plant.

Bamboo, a commonly grown plant, is one of the worst offenders of inflated cold tolerance figures. So what is the thing is root hardy? The plant, with few exceptions (some of the timbers are quite vigourous, and once over a threshold size, and with good feeding the previous summer, 'can' size up the year following top-kill), comes back smaller and weaker than the year before. This is determental in terms of plant health and ornamental value. From my own and others experiences both prolonged freezes with lows near -18C and/or an extreme low below -20C (a little colder for the toughest species, P. aureosulcata, A. gigantea etc.) will cause burning, and temps just a little lower will cause top-kill. I should point out that there are also inflated or even 'deflated' zone figures for some plants. Yucca, with a few exceptions, is hardier to cold than the zone figures usually indicate. Cacti are universally tougher than they are rated.

By all means please do plant a P. nuda, but be sure to keep it protected... I just think that since you're going to have to protect it anyway (snow, mulch) you might as well try something a little more exotic looking and/or vigourous. And, do plant an A. gigantea... I want to know how low it can go and for how long! It certainly would see temps below -25C occasionally in habitat and maybe even colder some times! I'm interested in seeing if it can handle the sort of continuous low temps that you get up there in Tbay!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:13 am

I 100% agree with you. And I admit, i shouldnt say never, but, it is VERY VERY rare here, fortunatly.

Also, im fortunatly not naive enough to belive everything that i read. Which is why i joined this site. I know tthere are other people as crazy as me LOL. I agree about the hardiness ratings of plants. The system that most of us use are for trees and shrubs. Not pams, cacti, succulents, yucca, bamboo ETC. They are differnt plants, which means differet adapibility. As well as where they grow climate wise. You wont be able to grow something that needs 12 hours of light all year, in england ( like the mazari palm, which apperantly fails horribly there). Not to mention moisture requirments ( some plants are way more hardy if left dry), and humidity, and cold winds... the list goes on and on. Ive been reaseraching this for a LONG time.

I agree about the ,ultching as well. But there are some species that top kill well ( cant remember names of the top of my head... I think they where the Pylostachys. And if this year proved something.... i can make fargesia survive quite well here. So i efinetly learned alot about them this year. And here, no matter what, Im at the very very very minumum, multching. Im probably going to do more of what I did with my fargesia though, it seemed to work well there. Also, this year ive payed attention to the parts of the yard where the snow melts first. I belive thats a good indication of micrclimate, or at least a place to plant some things.

About the root hardy figures. Doesnt the age and size of the root structure play a difference in how well they come back? Our winters are way more moist then others. WEre heavily influenced by the great lakes, where as the US has nothing to even match the size and influence they have. its good in some ways and bad in others of course. The winters are more moist, which sucks becaue it makes it feel colde then it is ( if youve ever spent a winter in ccalgary, it feels way way warmer there, even at the same temp,m and windchil).

Your realy pushing the giganta ??????? Im gonn ahave to ask why. I took a good look at tit, and its actualy very nice, its in my list of possibilities. giganta, is originalfrom up to ohio, and southern ontario appperantly....

As always i appreciate your input. Your in the losest climate to me, , so I hope , and have larned alot , . I will say though, when I seen my fargesia, it dd make me a bit cocky hahahah

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:30 pm

"Your realy pushing the giganta ??????? Im gonn ahave to ask why. I took a good look at tit, and its actualy very nice, its in my list of possibilities. giganta, is originalfrom up to ohio, and southern ontario appperantly....

As always i appreciate your input. Your in the losest climate to me, , so I hope , and have larned alot , . I will say though, when I seen my fargesia, it dd make me a bit cocky hahahah"

I'm pushing the A. gigantea since it is probably the hardiest bamboo in the world. I also pushed the giant Miscanthus because it is so rewarding! I've heard about the possible Ontario populations for A. gigantea, but have not seen a herbarium specimen listed anywhere, so, for now, those are only rumours (and if it was once found in ontario, it probably isn't anymore...)

Your protection worked like a charm, so you have every right to be cocky... I'm such an old hen now (I admit that I'm a few years short of 30 still), but I've seen so many people try this hobby only to disappear the next year when things don't work out!

Hey, I should put some photos on that bambooweb website! Show what happens to most bamboo in zone 5!!!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:42 pm

BAMBOO PUSHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL. Of course it happens to be one of the more expensive ones there :S LOL

Im definetly going to take the giganta into concideration. As well as everything youve said. But as for the miricanthus... You know where i might be able to score some? or atleast seeds?

I agree that this is all about trial and error. Which is why i dont listin when someone says "you cant", but i still take in their input as always. Im just lucky that i had success so far this year.

Ya if there were, there arent anymore, or atlest seen. People just probably think its tall grass and pay no attention to it, or kill it. :S even passiflora was apparently as far north as southern ontario. And magnilia, hibiscus.... its crazy actualy...

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:58 pm

" But as for the miricanthus... You know where i might be able to score some? or atleast seeds? "

Yes. Send me a PM and I can hook you up. Have to wait until late April though since I don't want to dig any before I know it will form 'culms'!

We still have native magnolia (M. acuminata, you should try it up there), and there are native Hibiscus, in the Southern part of the province... We also have 2 native cacti (one in your neck of the woods, sort of). We also 'used' (still do?) to have Rhododendron maximum, which, if it's still around, would be our only native BLE that can reach tree size! I'm sure that I'm missing some other interesting stuff too...

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:14 pm

ok paul...... i think you convinced me on the giganta hahahaha, even though its expensive as hell. BUt answer me this.... which one is mekon?

these ones?
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showp ... ig&cat=543
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showp ... 3&size=big

or these ones? Or are they the same??
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showp ... ig&cat=543
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showp ... 3&size=big

The fisrt links look way better then the bottom ones for sure.... if its the top one....... im totaly down with the giganta... it looks like chamedorea ( bamboo palm). And its tolerand of full sun or full shade. And it can grow in moist soil.........

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:03 am

ya im pretty sure on that giganta..

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:32 am

Alright... so the bamboo is ordered........ Psudosasa Japonica ( cheap..... ill separate it when I get it.... half inside, half out......)

Phyllostachys aureosulcata alata

Wish me luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for your help everyone... and paul especialy!

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:01 am

So far everything ive planted has sprouted ( morning glory, clematis, passiflora.... lupin), excep the colocasia ( taro root), and the ginger ( common). I also added a Canna Indica Purpurea to my bamboo order...

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:34 pm

Ive aquired everything im gonna plant.... so now im waitin on my order to come in, and nature to decide if were gonna have an early frost date or not this year.... LOL..

Ill be posting som epics in a few weeks....

canadianplant · Post by **canadianplant** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:43 am

So now, the garden centers are open, and getting new shipments once or twice a week. So far ive picked up 3 foxfglove, what is labled" assorted clematis " ( the flowers are 5 pointed, either white or differnt shades or purple). Im waiting for their canna shipment... and to see if they get any more fargeisa in. Pics should be comming soon!

TerdalFarm · Post by **TerdalFarm** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:37 am

We're looking forward to those photos.
Last year I did all my planting in May and things weren't well established by the time June came and we had record heat. So, I've tried to start earlier this year. --Erik

PalmsNorth.com

Pushing the limits of cold hardiness..

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