Ok guys, I want to do this right

[wxman]

I'm currently soaking 6 seeds of each:

date palm (phoenix dactylifera)
silver mazari palm (nannorrhops ritchieana)
queen palm (arecastrum romanzoffianum)
mexican blue palm (brahea armata)
california fan palm (washingtonia filifera)
bismark fan palm (bismarkia nobilis)

I don't have much room so I am only starting 6 seeds of each at a time...is this enough to see at least 1 or 2 of each?

I have them soaking in my plant room which is 82F at the moment. I will soak them 48 hours (changing water after 24), and then planting. What medium should I use? Last time I used peat moss on my bismarkia seeds and they grew nasty fungus quick. Should I dip them in bleach before planting? Should I seal them in tupperware or leave them exposed in a pot? The top of the soil in that room dries out quick with the fan and heat blowing. I just don't want this to fail. Thanks!

[hardyjim]

Try sterilizing the soil first-
Bake it at 350 for a half hour-or-
Place in microwaveable container with perlite and water(gallon worth of soil 4 cups perlite 2 cups water)
microwave for ten minutes-keep an eye on it.
Then,use only boiled water to water the seeds with,this should keep lethal mold, etc from taking out seedlings.
This is a technique used for sterilizing soil for sprouting tree fern spores
You can watch a video on it here-use the same technique for your seedlings

http://www.fernfactory.com/frontend/pro ... o=10000397

[Wes North Van]

Great advice and informative video.

Thanks

[Paul Ont]

To add to Jim's method, you can first soak the seeds for 15 minutes in a 5-10% solution of bleach (sodium hypochlorate) to remove most (if not all) pathogens. You should then rinse the seeds 2x with water that has been boiled to remove all traces of the bleach. In tissue culture we use either bleach solutions or ethanol to sterilize the tissue before placing it in the culture vessels. With seed TC, bleach is most commonly used. I'll be using the bleach from now on, now that I know how well it works (I've had mold problems in the past)...

If you're using the baggie method you can also add a little NO DAMP to the water, this sould limit or exclude most pathogens as well (In addition to the bleach treatment)! Good luck! I've just ordered a few palms myself:

T. takil (what I hope is the real deal, the seller thinks it is...)
T. nainital (what most takils currently in cultivation actually are)
T. oreophilus
Phoenix theo (the hardiest of the genus)
Butia paraguayensis
Jubea chilensis

[lucky1]

Ooooh, nice stuff you've both ordered.

One germinator on RPS recommended for big seeds like Bizzie, place them inside a tied mesh laundry bag and into the washing machine on Hot, adding some bleach, then perlite in baggies.

I'm expecting Wodyetia bifurcata seeds any day now; just can't find a Foxtail in nurseries anywhere.
Since they're the size of duck eggs, I'll use the washing machine, followed by soak (how long?) in a waterfilled casserole dish on an electric germinating mat. then into big baggies of perlite laid on the mat.

Thanks for the great No Damp! idea.

Microwaving sterilizing is hopefully not as STINKY as in a kitchen stove!

Barb

[hardyjim]

Paul
What size are the Takil plants?
If they are seedlings there is an easy and sure fire way to tell.
Takil seedlings first strap has 2 ridges on it,if it has this it is pure Takil!
If it has 4 ridges it is Takil hybrid,probably with Fortunei.
The only true Takils are from Takil palms with male and female parts ("flowers")or
if from the wild where only other Takil grows,much more rare.
Even the ones from the Rome gardens have mostly turned out to be Takilxfort hybrids.
True Takils are much more rare then people realize.The only other way to tell for sure is that mature Takil plants
have wrapped fiber like Latisectus or Martianus.
Most Trachys when young esp Naini Tal have wrapped fibers so,no help there!
Naini Tal is a great palm! Fast grower and very neat/compact crown.
Heres a pic of a confirmed Takil seedling,it's an upside down 2 ridger,so it actually looks like it has 3 ridges!
It is a pure Takil seedling-

First Trachycarpus Tesan seedling 4 ridges
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan"></a>

Now Takil 2 ridger-remember this leaf is upside down-it's my guess this one will be a real sidewinder/crawler!
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09003.jpg" border="0" alt="Takil"></a>

[Paul Ont]

Jim,
I don't know about this trait, is there any literature to support it? My scientific training requires that I am skeptical of everything... Sorry, it's my personality flaw. Until I see some data to support that 'tesan' or 'takil' are hardier, I'll hold off. One more thing, I understand that takil was, until very recently, offered only by europalms. Apparently other suppliers now carry the real deal, whatever the real deal is. Problem: if Beccari called the palms he found Trachycarpus takil, and sent seed back to Italy where the plams are still growing in his garden, AND these palms are different from those that Spanner and Gibbons found (and no, I'm not talking about nainital), then why are we calling anything but Beccari's palms 'takil'? Shouldn't we be calling the palms in India something else if they're genetically different from the trees Beccari described?

Now, for no reason, I'll launch into a non-sensical paragrah about speciation and species concept!

There are a few things about the 'reniform' Trachycarpus (I was just discussing this with John from CO), one is whether these species have been isolated long enough (or at all) to be called new species (fortunei, takil, nanus, urkense, princeps, 'green' princeps... I DO NOT consider wagnerianus a species). My feelings are, that, if that if it is possible for them to mate in nature (at all) then they are varietas of a species; if, however, they truly are reproductively isolated then they should be species (i.e could an animal/inect carry pollen from one to the range of another, or would this have been possible in the not too distant past). The very recent upheaveal of the Mountains there have caused rapid and specific changes in each valley, such that, though the palms in one valley might differ slightly from the palms in another valley in a few minor characters, they are still very similar, having not been seperated for long (e.g. look at ITS sequence data from these palms, they differ little (i.e. 1 base pair) or not at all. For comparison the species I work with, though they have a shorter life span, can have several base pair differences in their ITS, even wihtin a species)... Anyway, John made the point that no matter what we call something, there are still traits that are associated with cold adpatation (his 'trunk' creep adaptation to mountain culture), which are more important horticulturally then what name we call them. I'm currently working on a phylogenetics project, so I think the names are important, but I am a firm believer in genetic differences being required to speciate (if we can't tell them apart by their DNA, how important can the taxonomic characters be?). Of course, taxonomists still run the show, so my position isn't well supported... Not that phenotypic traits aren't important, just that they need to be accompanied by measurable genetic differences. For example, in a recent talk by Dan Janzen, a renowned ecologist, he presented examples of butterflies from 1(8?) seperate species detected first by barcoding (cox1 DNA sequence) which had completely escaped taxonomic detection. On the other hand he presented an example of 4 butterly that were very different looking, and barcoding revealed that these we in fact all one species. Now, I realize that plants (woody plants) evolve more slowly, but there surely must be some genetic limit that must be reach before speciation occurs?

Does this make sense to anyone?

[hardyjim]

Trachycarpus drives people to fights and really gets under a lot of peoples skin.
I personally love this palm with all it's diversity.
If you look on the E.P.S.website (European Palm Society)there is a lot of info on Trachycarpus.
You would do well to direct your questions there and I think will get the most current thinking on this subject-sometimes Gibbons are Spanner will join the discussion.
They also have a site magazine called Chamaerops that discusses Takil(and many other palms) and it's ability do change sex from male to female as it ages!
Also if you search the threads there you will find quite a few threads on Takil,Princeps etc.
They have also been discussing the SFH trait,which may have to do with the position of the root in the embryo,anyway,lots of info-to much to go into here.
Hope to see you over there some day.
If you are in to Trachys ,I think you would really enjoy it!

If your talking about John in Colorado,of the famous Growing palms in Co.springs website(?)I seriously doubt they tested Takil,more likely Naini Tal-if that.
As far as cold hardiness goes,their various Fortunei,etc-survived -15F so,what about Tesan surviving -5F? Not really saying much.
Those guys did the best work I have ever seen on growing cold hardy palms!
I do have quite a few Tesan and they are different from Fortunei,much more compact-really beautiful little palms.
AS far as cold hardiness goes,(to me)the healthy palm wins!
I do think Latisectus,Martianus,Oreophlius to name a few are not looking as cold hardy as Fort,wag,Naini.etc-but they have not been tested under dry conditions-that I know of-
European winters are pretty wet so,not the best data from there?
Wagnerianus is a curious Trachy-where the hell did it come from?
There is a nursery in Korea that claims their Waggys can handle -5(F)
I bought a few form a guy in New Jersey,they are still small.
It will be interesting to see how some of these palms(Fortxwag-Nanusxwag,Tesan,Misan,etc) turn out as they grow.

Take care Paul
always interested in your thoughts on this subject

P.S.
Check out the E.P.S. site!

[Paul Ont]

Jim, I joined the E.P.S. site, but I don't really want to stir those guys up too much! I wonder if it's he same Nigel who told me he was resolutely opposed to declassifying any species? Probably is... I'll see if I can't track down the thesis and the figure I'm talking about before I post anything...

I see what you mean about the takil trait, it certainly seems like it's a real thing. I still have my hesitations about what the palms now being sent from India are, if they are genetically distinct form Beccari's original palms... Anyway, thanks for the reply!

[hardyjim]

Yea,
Good to see you over there Paul,the more heads the better!
The more Trachys the better!

[Paul Ont]

Yea,
Good to see you over there Paul,the more heads the better!
The more Trachys the better!

apparenly tha dave guy is a nurseryman who is taking the piss a little. He's more a clumper than I am! Really, my only concern is that proper taxonomic procedures are followed, and I'm not convince that they are or have been...

Still, a knowledgable bunch and very interesting too.

[hardyjim]

I think the whole thing is actually pretty complex but there has been great progress lately!
Hopefully Gibbon's & Spanner's new book will clear some things up.
I am just happy at this point that I have a few (REAL!) Takil growing now,just gotta get through to spring when they will be big enough to make it.
Most people do not realize how truly rare a genuine Takil is!
I get a kick out of some of the pics people post with their 7g Takil plants, not likely-they will be lucky if it's Naini Tal,which is a truly great palm!

[BILL MA]

Hey Jim,
Is gibbons and Spanners older book still current enough to read? What's it called and when's the new one coming out? I love Trachys, more I can read about them the better.

Bill

[hardyjim]

I have not seen their books,although they are coming out with a new one that is supposed to shed some light on the Trachycarpus situation.
You can check out their Trachycarpus key here -


http://www.plantapalm.com/Vpe/palmkey/t ... chykey.htm

[BILL MA]

Thanks Jim. Keep me posted if you here anything on there new one. By the way my 3 needles all grew 6 fronds, I counted this morning.

Bill

[DesertZone]

Jim....good info on the trachys, thanks.

[hardyjim]

Only 6-That's embarrassing.
Mine will take until 2011 to grow 6

[BILL MA]

I did have enough Carl Pool for them.

Bill

[hardyjim]

Looking forward to trying it next year.
If they grow as much as yours did,they will be to big to protect

[BILL MA]

Lets hope they grow so big that it's a pain to protect them, remember there never to big to protect

Bill

[hardyjim]

Right just extend your house out over the front yard and charge them rent!
Like Barb did

[lucky1]

Hi wxman, have the seeds finished soaking? Great variety great palms you're starting!
What potting media did you decide on?

John and Steve gave two good links over on Photos for easy-to-get and effective fungicides:
Use 3% hydrogen peroxide, other idea was Chamomile Tea.
(was going to post those links but lost them!!)

To keep potted seeds/soil from drying out, can you mist them twice a day with water that was boiled (and cooled)?
Maybe throw plastic over the pots, elevating it somewhat...maybe a chair or a box in each of the four corners to form a bit of a tent where air can still circulate.

I spent a big part of the day potting up my foxtail seeds...50 of 'em.
Ran out of pots, ran out of peat moss, the other bag was frozen in my trunk so I had to heat it on the woodstove first
Great way to spend a day.

Please post some pics of your set-up.

Here's my 50 seeds planted...I left one seed in a jug of water just to see what happens when.
The dust on my woodstove is from mixing dry peat moss (and rehydrating), and mixing perlite. Cough! Choke!


Barb

[BILL MA]

Good job with all those seeds Barb, I'd say the wood stove will keep them warm enough. Do you plan having them germinate by morning? LOL! I'm soaking my first batch as we speak.

Bill

[lucky1]

Thanks.
I was scrambling for containers, rooting around in cupboards

germinate by morning?

It just looks like they're close to the stove.
After all that work I sure don't want to cook 'em.

I got an aquarium thermometer for soaking seeds to keep them at 85 to 90 F.
Didn't realize that thermometer doesn't work OUT of water.
Why not? mercury is mercury, after all.

Husband asked "Why 50?"
"Because I want ONE foxtail palm, and none of my last palm seeds popped!"


Barb

[Knnn]

Barb,

You're all set there!
Nothing to do now but pot them up as they germinate

Those thermometers should work in or out of the water, are you getting a cool reading inside the containers?
You may need to experiment moving the cart around to find the perfect spot.


Steve

[lucky1]

Thanks Steve, it was fun to do but hard on my old back.
Seems I need a potting bench inside AND outside.

Glad the little greenhouse is on wheels
Its plastic fitted plastic cover goes on overnight.

thermometers should work in or out of the water

Yes it does guess I expected a big drop when it went into media vs. warm water.

Barb

[BILL MA]

Just kidding around Barb, I know your not going to cook em

Bill

[lucky1]

If I do, I'll eat 'em to hide the evidence of my stupidity.
Barb

[hardyjim]

If I do, I'll eat 'em to hide the evidence of my stupidity.
Barb

And you may still END UP with one!

[lucky1]

Drumroll, ta da



I am so excited! Even if it's the only one of the 50 to pop...

next time I want fresh seeds like this, I'm getting them from CFPACS!

life is good

Barb

PS--it's Foxtail Palm (Wodyetia bifurcata).

[Knnn]

Barb, Congratulations, nicely done!


Steve

[Wes North Van]

Very interesting seed Barb.
Congrats on getting it to germinate.
Very mild winter here. Probably there to I would imagine.
I haven't seen frost since the middle of December.
Around here the middle of February is usually it for winter and then we move into spring.
We have cherry trees, rhodos, spring bulbs out already.

[lucky1]

Glad you mentioned that, Wes.
I look at the intricate "webbing" on that Foxtail seed and continue to be amazed at nature's ability to provide what's needed.
Instead of a smooth hard coat, these hard large seeds have such an intricate pattern that provides many little niches for moisture to reside to help break down the outer layer.

The cleaned seedcoat looks like the view of highway overpasses from a plane.
All are hard as a rock, and weave in and around one another in such an intricate pattern.

I'm going to try to zoom the pic, blow it up, for a small piece of artwork.
Vincent van Foxtail...


Yup, mild winter here too, very little cold.
Because of the palm hut, I'm keeping daily temp records this winter.
Our lowest was Dec 14 at 7 a.m. was -20.6C but it didn't last (not like last winter's brutal cold and huge snowfalls in December).
Generally winter's seen -12, -6, -8 averages, not at all bad for this area.
But no snow! Skiff now and then, the max was 4 inches one night, blew away in the winds two days later.

Bureaucrats are already fussing about fire risk and water shortages...

haven't seen frost since the middle of December

a typical Vancouver winter!
Cherry trees already blooming? Wow, that is early.
I remember working in Burnaby many years ago, a cherry tree was right outside my office window.
Generally bloomed late April/early March I think.
A mass of double pink blooms, think it was a Kwanzan (sp?) variety.

...been a while since we've seen updated pics of your gorgeous palms, Wes
Barb

[lucky1]

OK, played with picture a bit.

Here's Vincent van Foxtail: