Musings on new Plants to try...

Banana Plants, etc

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Paul Ont
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Musings on new Plants to try...

Post by Paul Ont » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:56 am

Each fall/winter I go into 'catalog' mode looking for new and interesting additions to the woodlot and garden. I'm always interested in killing what I haven't yet (and, if I have killed it already, I need to do it twice more)...

For the record I garden in a cold continental USDA zone 4b/5a climate (or, if you like, a zone 5b/6a Canadian zone). Winters are long with deep freezes and few breaks in the freeze from mid-December to late February (or early March).

I'm interested in suggestions for BLE's to try, and will list those that I am interested in below...

Rhododendrons:
calophytum, sutchuense, praevenium, other hybrids and species with large leaves. I do have quite a few Rhodies on trial (including the fairly large leaved 'Spellbinder' which was 100% through the mild winter of 2009/10).

Bamboos:
Many I want to try, most of which aren't available in Canada. These include Phyllostachys stimulosa, propinqua; Fargesia murieale (I've killed it once, need to try again), and other spp., Arundinaria gigantea (I've killed 2 small plants, need to try again)., others?

Laurels:
I've not tried English, Carolina, Portugese laurels. Based on what I've read they 'might' have a chance in good microclimates here. However, from what I've seen in warmer winter areas (Niagara, Nova Scotia), they may not look very good in spring, nor grow very tall...

Mountain laurel:
I've killed 2, I now have 2 newer ones that have done well for the past few years. Well worth the effort to find some different cultivars.

Evergreen Dogwood:
I've avoided trying to find one since I've read it is borderline in zone 6b... I should try one just to be sure.

Daphinophyllum:
Listed are borderline in zone 6... I should procure and kill a few just to be sure!

Cunninghamia:
Well worth a shot. I list it here despite the fact that it is a conifer...


Magnolias:
I'm trying mature Southern Magnolia this winter for the first time (BBB). I think a better bet for my location would be hybrids between So. mag. and some hardier spp. These, however, are rare and expensive. I'm also interested to try different selections of M. virgiana. I have 'Henry Hicks' but it is a poor performer holding few leaves and getting a large amount of die back in cold winters... Oh, and it is SLOW!

Evergreen Viburnums:
Haven't tried any. They may not be 100% evergreen, but should be hardy and can probably hold leaves until January.

Ilex:
I have several American Hollies. These plants are weak a bad to look at. They seem to be getting hardier as time goes by, but they are SLOW growers. I've tried, and killed, Blue Prince and Blue Princess, but it may have been soil conditions rather than cold (it did drop to -20f that winter though). I should really try them again. I will also procure some holly hybrids from the trees growing at Vineland ON. They would have seen temps as low as -24c in the past. Also, I need to track down a source for I. pendunculosa, which is one of the nicest, and potentially hardiest, of the evergreen hollies.

Aucuba himalaica. Listed by Dirr as hardier than A. japonica... Worth a shot.

Anyone have any other suggestions? Locating sources for these should be difficult!
Last edited by Paul Ont on Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post by hardyjim » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:38 pm

BLE's?
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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:04 pm

gunnera? paulownia?
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Post by coltrane » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:04 pm

Jim, bacon, lettuce, and egg sandwiches. Probably a Canadian thing. :?

As for broad leaf evergreens, magnolias are hard to beat. Im trying 'alta' this year. Supposedly hardy to -10f.
Also growing little gem, teddy bear, and the classic grandiflora (the biggy).

Gunnera and paulownia......killer leaves but unfortunately not evergreen.
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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:49 pm

I should have read the post a little slower because I missed "BLE" only :lol:
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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:14 pm

Huh? BLE? What is it?
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Paul Ont
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Post by Paul Ont » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:18 pm

BLE- Broad Leaved Evergreen... Though I did include Cunninghamia which is a conifer...

Cameron I have a Paulowina and a Gunnera. The Paulowina is killed back to the ground each winter (I posted a really good research article on Paulownia hardiness in a different topic); my Gunnera made it through last winter with only a leaf covering, but it really suffered this summer (lack of water, methinks) so I have it potted to regain some vigour.

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Post by TimMAz6 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:37 pm

Hi Paul,

Aucuba himalaica sounds interesting.....who offers it?

how about this plant:
http://www.westonnurseries.com/index.cf ... nt_id=1471

Evergreen shrubs: (click on pull down menu for ever green shrubs)
http://www.westonnurseries.com/index.cfm

Weston Nursery is located west of Boston....I imagine they are in USDA zone 6a or 5b.

Ever messed with Petasites giganteus? Pretty cool looking and very rare in our area! Rated to zone 4!!
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Post by Paul Ont » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:48 am

Ok Tim, that place looks awesome. What a huge selection. They have Ilex pendunculosa, which is 100% unavailable in Canada :twisted:

Has anyone ever heard of Aucuba japonica borealis, I read about it last night and it is, apparently, a hardier form from higher altitudes and more northerly areas. It is also supposed to have a dwarf stature. I have never seen it for sale.
Here are the results of a google search:
http://www.woodlanders.net/index.cfm?fu ... ant_id=282
http://www.rarefindnursery.com/index.cf ... d/4865.htm


The other plant that sounded interesting was a hybrid Ivy (Hedera sp.) and Fatsia. I had never heard of this before, but it sounded interesting, so I looked it up and it is rated to zone 7... One for you to try Tim.

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Post by TimMAz6 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:05 am

Hi Paul,

the hardy Aucuba sounds like a winner for northern gardeners. I have one of those (hybrid Ivy (Hedera sp.) and Fatsia) plants. It's barely hardy here in zone 6b.....don't waste your time........nothing special. It has die back every winter........about 1/2 the plant dies. I have it plastered against a north facing wall (house). I planted it in 2005? and it's still only 3 feet tall and needs to be staked.
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Paul Ont
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Post by Paul Ont » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:36 am

Thanks for that note Tim. I won't bother wasting my time with the hybrid. Now, to track down a source for those Aucuba's!!!

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Post by igor.glukhovtsev » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:23 am

Paul, I grow my plants under the similar conditions you have in Kingston. It might be even milder 'cos your long lasting fall and the spring without April and May cold spells. You should be OK growing Aucuba japonica that I've having for 20 years already. My Phyllostachys sp. survived many winters below 20 degrees (even minus 30). Of course Eonimus radicans in many varieties that you are growing already. Try some evergreen berberis like B.juliana. As for a hybrid of Fatsia and Hedera hibernica (XFatshedera litzei) unlikely if it would survive without good protection. I tried it for a few years... I'm not familiar with the plants English common name but if you mean Laurus nobilis it should be fine with a very heavy mulching. Try the Hederas (hibernica, colhica).
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Post by igor.glukhovtsev » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:48 am

Paul, would you please provide me with more information regarding your Gunnera. I've got one recently planning to start growing it outside next year. How do you overwinter your plant?
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Post by Paul Ont » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:38 am

Igor-
As for Aucuba it has been a dismal failure in my climate. Just a little bit too cold for it. The 'borealis' variety and A. 'Himilaica' however are going to be tried (and likely killed) in the future.

For the Gunnera it only survived one winter (low was -23C or so) in the ground was almost completely killed. It was covered with a thin layer of mulch (3") then topped with 6"-12" of fallen deciduous leaves. If I was to do it again I'd stick a few 2L bottles of water under the leaves and wrap 'pipe heaters' around those to keep the soil from freezing. It did not come back until June/July and was much smaller than the previous year.

Here it is beside my Petasites 'gigantea' or whatever (it's the small floppy looking plant.), August 2010, shortly before I dug it up and put it in a pot:
<img src="http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/33425 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="213">

And, here it is the previous summer (August):
<img src="http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/45535 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="DSC00151">

I've just been reading about evergreen barberry, definitely worth a try. Have you any experience with evergreen Viburnum? I have about ~8-10 species and selections of bamboo growing. It is only a little too cold for them to hold their leaves most winters. I think they will hold up better in future years, once they have the chance to spread their roots and build up some carb reserves. Laurus nobilis= Bay Laurel. Killed outright here (not just to the ground). I don't think I will try it again (unless a super hardy cultivar is introduced).

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Post by canadianplant » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:53 pm

Ive never asked paul, have you tried eucalyptus or fig down there at all??
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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:11 pm

what about some arums? they might not be evergreen, but they're green in the fall and going through winter!
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Post by TimMAz6 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:05 pm

Hi Paul,

very cool Petasites 'gigantea'!! I've always wanted to try one......do you like yours?
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Post by Paul Ont » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:44 am

Jesse- I've tried only Eucalyptus seedlings. They died the first winter. I do still have some high altitude Eucalyptus seed kicking around. I might as well plant those. Fig I have not tried after seeing how it fared in warmer climes. In Halifax there was one on the SMU campus that was killed back to the ground each winter and regrew to between 3 and 5 feet. It never looked good. You can get them to resprout to ~10 feet here in T.O. (or more) but, to me, they aren't worth the effort and there are better plants to try. If you completely protect it you can have a decent tree by the end of summer. Below is a pic of a tree in downtown Toronto. Originally I thought the tree was unprotected, but subsequently I learned that it is trimmed up, dug out of the ground, and stuck in a garage for the winter. It is massive for a zone 6 Fig (esp. considering that it is only top-hardy to between -12C to -15C):
<img src="http://inlinethumb31.webshots.com/47454 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="Fig Tree">

Tim- Petasites is very easy. It needs constant wet and fertility to get the giant leaves. I do like it, but, be wary if you choose to plant one. I've seen them completely take over large areas in a matter of years. Definitely one you want to give some room!

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Post by canadianplant » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:06 am

Hmmmm good to know about the eucalyptus. Mabey an earlier start and or bigger plants to start with will give them a chance. Apperantly with eucs, if you confine the roots, you instantly stunt the plant for years. I was going to protect it like most people do musa:

Cut it down when it s dormant, wrap the trunk with pipe insulation, and multch the roots. Givin the right microclimate, and that protection, i should get a head start on it.

I could do the fig that way as well but " the old italian method " is to bend the branches to the ground and bury them in soil. Givin that brown turkey is root hardy to -20 or -23C ( depends on source), you could make a decent tree grow in areas that shouldnt be able to grow em. Then again, its quite a bit of work, to get them to really survive AND thrive in areas like ontario.

Paul was that you who tried passiflora?

*** That fig is very nice.... how tall?


EDIT

sorry paul.. What about different forms of clematis? Most are rated to zone 4, and I have a few types, what kind of luck do you have down there?
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Post by Paul Ont » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:21 am

Jesse- That fig was between 15 and 20 feet high. For a similar look and far less trouble I would go with something like Castor bean! Do you guys grow tree peonies up there? They are everywhere down here, but would really make a splash in areas a little colder...

Here is where my laziness shows. The only reason I can see growing eucalyptus is for the bark, which is stunning. For me, it makes more sense to focus on hardy alternatives, which are nice, but certainly not to the same extent. I have paperbark maple, Heptacodium (hardy Crape Myrtle), three-leaved maple, etc. I also am looking at hybridizing some of the less hardy Rhodo's with excellent bark colour to try to get that trait in a hardy plant. Also, the best time to show off this feature is in the winter, and, if the plant is wrapped up, you lose that ability. Just my 2 cents, don't ever let me stop you from growing anything (in fact, I can even send you some seed if I can find it). I'm also considering some other hardy plants with exfoliating bark. These might not be the big tropicalesque plants that we all love, but certainly do have a place in the 'exotic' garden. Things like Parrotia, Clethra, Stewartia, all of which I will be trying if sources can be found.

Clematis is rock hardy here. Never a problem over wintering the deciduous forms anywhere, even through the brutal winter where we hit -32c. As far as I know the evergreen types are not hardy at all.

I have not tried Passiflora in the ground. I have a plant of P. incarnata which is rated to zone 7. I could easily take a piece off and try it next spring...

Lastly, I am also looking in to winter-flowering plants. It can be pretty boring in the garden up here in the winter, and one of the goals of exotic gardening should be to have garden interest 12 months of the year. The BLEs help, as do the plants with exfoliating bark, however, having plants capable of flowering 12 months a year is also a goal. Things like Parrotia can help (exfoliating bark and in the with-hazel family), but I wonder what other plants I could try. Francko suggests Erica (Heather) which might be an option. I also have been looking a bit at some of the different witch-hazels... Does anyone have other suggestions?

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Post by canadianplant » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:09 am

I still have an unopen pack of castors. Im going to grow them next year... As for the fig.... well theres no harm in trying... That place in BC you showed me as 2 gallon plants for 10 bucks.... not to bad...

Ive never seen tree peoney.....Although peony grows very very well here ( mine were 5 feet tall this year with bloom s8 inches across). There were a few tree peony left at the end of the year for half off that i should have grabbed..... theres always next year...

Personaly, id grow eucs for their foliage ( of course their bark is a great contributer to the landscape). So i wouldnt personaly loose to much if i covered them. In your situation, I can understand why you wouldnt want to. I was thinking of trying a japanese maple, but to be honest it isnt tropical enough for me ( I almsot orderes balsa seeds for some annuals)..

Thats good to know about the clematis, every source ive read said the types I have are hardy to -32C ( The president, henryii and crystal fountain).

Im sure youve thought about camellia ( sinensis and others).

I have found a hardy ginger paul... .Zingiber Miooga ( also the variegated form "dancing crane". Root hardy to zone 6 UNPROTECTED. IT is absolutly sexy, but so far impossible for me to find ( i really dont want to get it rom ebay). SOme Hedychium is root hardy to zone 7, so you might be able to push it in your area if its beside your foundation.
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Post by igor.glukhovtsev » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:34 am

Paul Ont wrote:Igor-
As for Aucuba it has been a dismal failure in my climate. Just a little bit too cold for it. The 'borealis' variety and A. 'Himilaica' however are going to be tried (and likely killed) in the future.

For the Gunnera it only survived one winter (low was -23C or so) in the ground was almost completely killed. It was covered with a thin layer of mulch (3") then topped with 6"-12" of fallen deciduous leaves. If I was to do it again I'd stick a few 2L bottles of water under the leaves and wrap 'pipe heaters' around those to keep the soil from freezing. It did not come back until June/July and was much smaller than the previous year.


I've just been reading about evergreen barberry, definitely worth a try. Have you any experience with evergreen Viburnum? I have about ~8-10 species and selections of bamboo growing. It is only a little too cold for them to hold their leaves most winters. I think they will hold up better in future years, once they have the chance to spread their roots and build up some carb reserves. Laurus nobilis= Bay Laurel. Killed outright here (not just to the ground). I don't think I will try it again (unless a super hardy cultivar is introduced).
Paul, unfortunately the evergreen Viburnums are not available here in Kazakhstan. You might mean V.tinus or V. darvini but they are suitable for Zone 8 only. You didn't mention the Oregon grape (Mahonia aquifolium). It must grow in Kingston!!!
Another but decidious large leaf plant - Astilboides tabularis. I've bought mine at the Lost Horizons nursery (Acton, ON). They have a lovely collection of a various plants.
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Post by Paul Ont » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:07 am

Jesse- To each his own! To be honest I've never gotten in to gingers. Not that I find them unappealing, just that they haven't struck me... Yet... Japanese maple is one that is really over planted down here. They are EVERYWHERE. The local loblaws was selling them for something like 6 bucks recently... I did not buy. I do have 3 planted, but I only got them because they were on sale. In Kingston they are getting to the very edge of their hardiness, and big trees like you see here in T.O. are rare. They are interesting, but nothing to write home about. I do, however, have a variegated form that is slightly better to look at. The problem with it is the stem tip die-back, which means pruning each spring, which is a pain.
Even better than fig or castor bean is Kalopanax. I can't find it anywhere in Canada, but, if you look at var. maximowiczii, it looks like Fatsia (with bigger leaves) and is hardy into zone 5. Again, if you find it, let me know!

Igor- I am referring to some of the hardy evergreen types, like:
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/v/vibrhy/vibrhy1.html
Burkwood viburnum (V. X burkwoodii)
Viburnum pragense
and others.

Oregon grape is one that I've been avoiding. It looks good 6 months of the year, but get badly burnt here and really likes to hold its leaves. I might consider some of the different types of Mahonia which are probably better perfomrers.

Thanks for the suggestion, Astilboides is one that I will look out for!

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Post by canadianplant » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:27 am

HAs no one mentioned paw paw?? It may not be tropical ( even though its related to a tropical genus if im not mistakin), but it sure as hell looks like it. There is one growing here, about 15 feet tall, beautiul shape, low fat trunk and huge branches, and huge leaves....

Anyone ever grow stuff from the grocery store? Taro, ginger, papaya and many others can be grown ( yes some take a decade to get a decent size). If they arent hardy there, you could let them go dormant and stash em in the basement ( assuming their in pots, but then again, digging them up would sort of bonsai them, dwarfing them possibly which is a benefit). Most wont grow as permanent plants but would still add to the yard.
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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:10 pm

Paul, I'm a student at SMU and I wish they still had that euc! They do still have a 4 foot tall Asimina triloba (paw paw), along with a selection of magnolias.
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Post by canadianplant » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:33 pm

I just looked up the Kalopanax.... Looks like marijuana x castor bean LOL. Its a nice lookin tree.

Ive got some euc seed ( 10 each of 5 different kinds i belive, all seem to be very hardy ( from info online)) Thanks for reminding me i have to stratify em... LOL
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Post by Paul Ont » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:53 am

I don't know why no one grows Paw-paw around here... If you get northern selections they are 100% hardy. Here is mine, ~5 years old. It sailed through -32C:
<img src="http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/39249 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="197">

Cameron- That's good news about going to SMU, old Robie street high (kidding, of course). Take a look for the fig, it was planted right next to another tree at the end of the track (between the chain-link fence around the track and the asphalt path)... I did not see it last time I was there.

Another plant you should look out for is the big-leaf magnolia that is planted, not in the public gardens, but in the maintenance yard across the street (can't recall the street name right now, but it might be along the north side)... If you don't know John W., you need to. Look up the Atlantic Rhodo society and when their spring plant sale is. This would be an excellent place to find some difficult to locate plants for a very reasonable price. Last time I was there I picked up a new generation F. nitida seedling (hardiest bamboo I'm growing), a very hardy Pieris, and a Magnolia sieboldii form that has taken temps down to -30C.

Here is an old pic I took of the putative big-leaf (though from the distance, it could be any of perhaps 4 species):

<img src="http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/38779 ... 600Q85.jpg" alt="SmallBigleaf">

canadianplant
Clumping Palm
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:41 pm

Post by canadianplant » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:13 am

Wow it looks happy. Isnt that a bit small for 5 years though? I heard they are fast growers.....

I was loking in one of my books, and it mentioned " winter jasmine" hardy to zone 6. Im assuming it flowers in the winter..... and its a slight push for you down there to get it to grow, ( i cant remember the latin name).

Ive thought about magnolia, but id have to drive down there to get one, im 90% sure no one in my city actualy carries them , although one of their websites states they carry M " Merrill" They also apperantly carry the following kinds of azalea:

Golden Lights, Mandarin Lights, Orchis Lights, White Lights

And rhodie

Mikkeli, Purple Gem


Thats a nice Magnolia !!!! that isn NS correct??
"The definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results" - einstien

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DarkNight
Sprout
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 11:39 am
Location: Riga, Latvia, Zone 5a(often)-6a (officially), latitude 56°

Post by DarkNight » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:09 am

Paul Ont wrote: Lastly, I am also looking in to winter-flowering plants. It can be pretty boring in the garden up here in the winter, and one of the goals of exotic gardening should be to have garden interest 12 months of the year. The BLEs help, as do the plants with exfoliating bark, however, having plants capable of flowering 12 months a year is also a goal. Things like Parrotia can help (exfoliating bark and in the with-hazel family), but I wonder what other plants I could try. Francko suggests Erica (Heather) which might be an option. I also have been looking a bit at some of the different witch-hazels... Does anyone have other suggestions?
Early blooms in my garden:
Daphne mezereum
Withch Hazel
Rhododendrum
Crocus
Mahonia
Cornus mas
Forsythia
Rh. ledebourii
Rh. sichotense

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