Palm Hut interior getting too warm

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lucky1
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Palm Hut interior getting too warm

Post by lucky1 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:59 pm

-19C -2F outside this morning, inside palm hut was fine, about 4C 39F.
Then the sun came out and inside temps rose to 13C 59F.

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/520 ... 78d731.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04103" />

Fortunately the hut's against the east side of house, but 13C is too warm.
At these inside temps, I'll have to water it.
And I don't want to have to go out there twice a day, manually adjusting heater.

Thermocube turns off at 45F, too warm.

Too bad there isn't a narrow range thermocube that turns ON at 0C 32F and OFF at 3C 37F

Barb


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Post by TerdalFarm » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:56 pm

Barb,
oh, the snow! The ice!
I forgot what those look like. I went out to protect Trachy today and couldn't make myself do it. So warm. Surely my forecast is wrong? :lol:
Anyway, thanks for the update. I'm new to the "palm hut" thing (2nd year) and also worry about over-heating. Please keep the updates coming. --Erik

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Post by canadianplant » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:00 pm

Couldnt you crack the door open or put in a slidde vent system to let it cool off? I was thinking of my bamboo, i maight have to unvover them a day or 2 before the cold depths of winter owns us..
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Post by lucky1 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:11 pm

couldn't make myself do it.
don't blame you...it just takes a little longer once it's -5 F :lol:
crack the door open or put in a slidde vent system to let it cool off
My whole idea was to have everything automated: heater w thermocube, remote thermometer so I wouldn't have to trudge out there in -26C wind chills. Forgot about the sun shining on the clear roof. Maybe a 10% clear roof would've been a better idea.

Sounds like a couple more days of brutal cold, and then a warm up...AHHHHHH!
Barb
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Post by canadianplant » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:12 pm

HMMMMM, then id cover the roof a bit till it cools off, just throa a tarp ontop to difuse the light......
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Hello

Post by macario » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:48 pm

Hey barb your palm should be fine. It would get to 75 in my enclosure with the sun beating on it. You should put a hamock inside for you to enjoy on warm days :) It was so warm on the bottom and cold on the top it used to rain in my boxes.

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Post by ScottyON » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:12 pm

Mine does the same too Barb. It's about 5c at night then with day time heating it's up a little past 10c. Never had any problems with that yet! I also thing the snow will melt around the sides and if it rains I think it's still getting to the roots. I wouldn't worry too much!
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Post by canadianplant » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:18 pm

:shock: -17C barb that was a quick drop wasnt it:S Vancouver doesnt look to warm either...
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Post by wxman » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:35 pm

Yeah Barb, it'll be fine. Mine do the same thing. 40F at night and gets up to 70F on sunny days. Snow melt usually seeps under for water. But if you are worried, dump a 5 gallon bucket of water in there once a month or so over the winter to keep things from getting totally parched. That's what I do.

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Roof is leaking

Post by lucky1 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:20 pm

But it'll save me having to water the roots :lol:

Leaking down one wall inside where the plastic roof segments were joined, froze solid and backed up, dripping inside even with a big slope. Plastic roof didn't crack, but it could, so it's not a great material for roofing. May have to replace with a plywood roof next year...certainly won't use OSB (like the walls).

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/521 ... 990d37.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04120" />

Things look OK inside, except my miserable attempt at using spray foam.
Did you know that a blob of that stuff runs like a "Slinky" down a vertical surface?
And onto shoes, fingers, hair, clothes, the dog...
<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/521 ... bfd709.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04118" />

Those weren't ALL gaps...just had to use up the can :laughing3:

Yippppeeeee, it's above freezing!
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:05 pm

Barb,
thanks for sharing details.
Our new palm hut uses similar roofing material, vs. the OSB over insulation last year. I'll let you know how it works.
We have not had really cold weather yet, but it hit 80 oF in there by 11 am when the sun was shining in. W built the roof on hinges to let me prop it up by a foot to let heat out. Here's hoping heat is the problem not cold!
I bought a can of that spray foam but haven't used it yet. Thanks for the heads up re: dogs :lol:
--Erik

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Post by oppalm » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:51 pm

I agree with the others. I think your temps will be fine. You may need to water once or twice a month as needed. But I think as long as you are not getting direct sun hitting the tree , you will be fine.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by lucky1 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:30 pm

But isn't the whole idea...eventually...to have hardened off the palm so well during winter as it grows deeper and deeper roots that it'll be able to take our winters unprotected?
I doubt this palm hut will be tall enough in 10 years...then what?

Allowing a 30-degree variance from outside probably won't result in it ever "taking our winters".
I wanted to keep mine at just a few degrees below freezing at night, and just a few degrees above during the day.

Anyway, sunshine and mild temps melted roof ice. Heater is off.
It was 0C 32F today and inside the hut was...well, nice and comfy, but not 30C :D

Barb
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:47 pm

Kent,
I watered the palms in my hut today as it was warm (60 oF), dry and windy. I'm not sure how much/often to water in there over winter.
Barb,
very good point. Paul seems to know plant physiology/gene expression better than the rest of us. Hopefully he'll chime in.
I keep thinking about this broad topic, too, but really don't know if exposure to cold this year will help next year. I let my seedling Sabal see 24 oF in case that helps them for the future, but again have no idea. Have you found any internet sources on this interesting topic?
--Erik

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Post by lucky1 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:06 pm

any internet sources on this interesting topic
no, but I'll keep searchin' :wink:
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Post by hardyjim » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:15 am

Barb

Lot's of good suggestions....covering the glass to shade it,etc.

Unplugging the heater,I have the stuff I might want to unplug on a powerstrip
with a switch so I don't have to plug it back in and see sparks and what not.

In regard to your temps 60(F) is a great daytime temp,no worries there,Trachy are mountain palms
for the most part and are quite well equipped for temp swings!

Takil in it's native range regularly sees 15-25(F) at night and 50-60(F) by day.

My Trachys have dealt with 70(F)temp swings in one afternoon-evening,Bill and I were
kidding around about how the Washys saw 117(F) covered up still in April!
Now that's a tough palm!
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Post by oppalm » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am

Barb, that why I think I am going to buy a thermo cube that comes on at 10F (-12C) and off at 20F (-6C) for my palm hut. a trachy and sabal minors above 35F (2C) is not conducive to their long term survival in my zone I need to harden these palms off.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by BILL MA » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:53 am

Those temps are fine for your trachy Barb. Look at it this way, not that it makes a big difference in your case because your hut stays right around freezing, when it warms up in there the spear grows a little and if there was something going on with it "mild fungus" theoretically speaking it will push it out. That's how I look at it at least.

Bill

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:04 am

Trachy are mountain palms for the most part and are quite well equipped for temp swings!
I'm not worried that I'll damage the Trachy...just that it'll never get hardy for an unprotected winter here where temps seldom exceed 0C 32F for two or three months in winter. Often a heck of a lot lower than that.

Isn't our ultimate goal to have a 20 or 30 foot palm tree survive a typical winter because we protected it well when it was young?

Covering the roof is an easy option to keep it cooler.
a thermo cube that comes on at 10F (-12C) and off at 20F (-6C)
I shied away from that one, range seemed a little TOO cold for a palm only planted one year.
Will look for a different thermocube next year.
Maybe a PLC electrician can "build/program" one.

Thanks folks.
Barb
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Post by JackLord » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:40 am

Barb- its a pretty impressive palm hut. Perhaps stuff it with leaves or straw and forget about the heat source?

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:21 am

stuff it with leaves or straw
Sheesh, I'd have to find a hay farmer, and appoint him Husband #2. :lol:

If I were in a zone 7, I wouldn't even think of heating it, Charles.
Alas...
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Post by JackLord » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:21 pm

lucky1 wrote:
stuff it with leaves or straw
Sheesh, I'd have to find a hay farmer, and appoint him Husband #2. :lol:

If I were in a zone 7, I wouldn't even think of heating it, Charles.
Alas...
Only the Butia is getting heat. I wanted to spoil it because last year's leaf cage became very wet and reeked havoc on its fonds. I may return to that method next year. The Meds and Trachys have leaf cages whilte the Sabal Minors and Needles have nothing but mulch and my encouragement.

The Home Depots around here always sell bales of hay for people to make rustic looking outdoor decorations. I think that hut filled with hay would protect that Trachy.

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Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:41 pm

Hay is easy--you can get it delivered (photo). I had six bales dropped of yesterday. :D

Charles,
my avatar Butia has not had heat any of its four winters but it is pretty much defoliated every winter despite hay and cover. It recovers well in our Summer heat. Last year, I used pipe heating cable on a large but new Butia and it came through with very little leaf loss, so I support your idea to give Butia some heat. Probably not necessary to keep it alive, but it will have a much better Spring for it.

Keep us updated! --Erik

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:52 pm

you can get it delivered (photo). I had six bales
Honey, (calling husband), can you come help with a delivery?
His reply wouldn't be printable once he saw what was outside
.
I can see that hay would work, especially the small rectangular bales.
It's not for me though...leads to too many mice around.
And, no, I don't want a cat.
:wink:

Barb
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Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:58 pm

W didn't even tell me she had this ordered--it just showed up.

As for cats, we have five. We wander the garden together every morning. They have figured out how to get into the new palm hut, so no mice in there. --Erik

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Post by hardyjim » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:51 am

Barb

I think the real trick in getting your palm to be cold hardy or hardier :wink:

Is obviously letting it get established- as you are aware but also gradually exposing it to colder temps
in the fall/winter.

Think about where the cold hardy Trachys grow.....in the mountains.

In some places in Colorado they are already seeing freezing temps in late Aug(early)-Sept
and yet the sun is still strong.
I think this is one of the reasons John's(in Colorado)-palms are so cold hardy,these palm have a long time to adjust to cold!

It can be very hard on a palm that has not seen temps below freezing to take even 20(F)if it is sudden,
or any extended temps below freezing.
If you can slowly expose it to cold,say in 5(F) increments(maybe every 10-14 days) it should be adjusting to it,if it is healthy.

It also seems that the slower growing Trachys of the Fortunei/Takil group are more cold hardy.
My slowest growing Trachys were completely untouched by cold that(as you know)leveled my other Trachys-
the faster growing Trachys were still putting out TO MUCH growth when winter closed them out.
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Post by JackLord » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:53 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Hay is easy--you can get it delivered (photo). I had six bales dropped of yesterday. :D

Charles,
my avatar Butia has not had heat any of its four winters but it is pretty much defoliated every winter despite hay and cover. It recovers well in our Summer heat. Last year, I used pipe heating cable on a large but new Butia and it came through with very little leaf loss, so I support your idea to give Butia some heat. Probably not necessary to keep it alive, but it will have a much better Spring for it.

Keep us updated! --Erik

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That is my thinking- spoil it a bit. But all things being equal, it would do just fine with a leaf cage so long as the leaves remain dry. Allowing the leaves to get wet as been my major mistake since I got into this eccentric undertaking. Not the kiss of death, but it does whack the palm good. Now I utilize tarps to cover the cages.

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Post by lucky1 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:57 am

in Colorado they are already seeing freezing temps in late Aug(early)-Sept
and yet the sun is still strong.
I think this is one of the reasons John's(in Colorado)-palms are so cold hardy,these palm have a long time to adjust to cold!
But I thought early cold was particularly damaging to cool-loving palms like Trachy fortunei.
Mine hates the dry windy desert heat of summer, but really looks good and grows well come September (and keeps growing much later).

Then heating it in a palm hut to 45F with a thermocube... :| hmmm.

Because of the palm hut temps when we hit -19C -2F, I had the heating on but didn't like the 45F result...too warm.
Compounded on a sunny day.
So the trick with my old fortunei--that here puts on growth well into end Oct--is to use heat ONLY when brutal cold arrives.

And turn it off completely when it's "normal" cold, say, -10C 14F.
Your power bar on/off switch is a good idea.

Requires a bit more "staying on top of things", but totally eliminates the need for the 45F thermocube.

Re leaves, Charles:
By the time all our leaves are off, and raked, they're so wet I place them only around the exterior base of the palm hut to a height of about a foot.
Then they freeze solid.

Barb
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Post by oppalm » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:18 am

Barb, I am thinking about pulling my thermocube also and just plugging my spot light in when temps are below 15F (-9C) and leave it on as long as temps stay below 15F.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by JackLord » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:15 pm

Re leaves, Charles:
By the time all our leaves are off, and raked, they're so wet I place them only around the exterior base of the palm hut to a height of about a foot.
Then they freeze solid.
I hear you. Our county requires that leaves be put in paper bags for recycling or swept into piles which they country takes. I grab bags from neighbors, but must cover them with something until they are deployed lest they be soaked.

There is no easy way. Growing a palm is committing to lifelong endeavor. :|

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