Waterproof heating cables

Discuss greenhouse related topics and outside weather protection methods.

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Seba
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Waterproof heating cables

Post by Seba » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:00 pm

As I will be very busy for work in Dicember, I am starting to protect my younger palms from this week. I have bought several German 30 Watts heating cables with a built thermostat: in Germany they are generally used for external water pipes. They had a classic schuko plug. My electrician has cutted that plug and has connected each heating cable with a waterproof elecrtical connection (the blue product is named "the shark" - see picture. It has a special gel inside).
I have also created a bamboo hut for each younger palm, that will be covered with the protection tissue from Dicember - I live in zone 8.
I have only to remember to leave a piece of heating cable near the ground, to protect the roots.
Because of all the cables and extension cords, it seems that my garden belongs to a mad scientist, anyway I am crazy about palms ;-)

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Last edited by Seba on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Waterproof heating cables

Post by Seba » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:04 pm

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hardyjim
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Post by hardyjim » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:02 pm

Did you say you are in z8 ?

What are your minimum winter lows?
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Post by TerdalFarm » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:32 pm

Stefano,
thank you for sharing your protection methods here.
Of the various palm forums, this one is the best for exchanging winter protection ideas.
As with you, and Duncan (in Canada--he was -23 oC today!), I use the thermostat controlled pipe heating cable.
I'll place mine in the next few days and will share photos.
--Erik
P.S. -- congrats on the shark pups!

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Post by Seba » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:12 am

hardyjim wrote:Did you say you are in z8 ?

What are your minimum winter lows?
In general winters never go under - 6/7 °c here, but last winter I registered - 12 °C and one day - 15 °C. I use protections to all the younger palms planted in the ground during the last spring.

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Post by Cowtown Palm Society » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:20 am

Hi Seba, welcome to the forum.

Erik, Jim and others using heat tape/cables:

I was under the impression that it's too hot to have the cables touching the plant itself? Is this the case?

Thanks!
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:12 pm

Duncan,
I know Stefano from another forum. He is a great guy and knows a lot. I am glad he is here.

As for the pipe heating cables, I am always reluctant to give advice on these as there are several models out for sale. I don't want to give advice based on the ones I use and have it applied to a different product.

Despite that, the ones I have used for years on exposed PVC water pipes in the horse barn never feel hot, or even very warm, to the touch. Yet pipes never freeze. Last winter was the first I used them on plants. I checked often and they never felt hot or even warm to the touch, yet the two palms with them kept their foliage through winter vs. palms without (all mulched and covered, of course). The tape was not on the leaves, but the little bit of heat on the trunk and spear seemed to help the leaves as well.

Anyway, I am "sold" and I'll buy a few more today. --Erik
Last edited by TerdalFarm on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Cameron_z6a_N.S. » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:34 pm

Welcome to the forum! That looks like a good protection method so far! Wo wohnst du in Deutschland?
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Post by lucky1 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:59 pm

Hello seba, welcome.
That's a gorgeous Butia...tying those recurving fronds the opposite way is like wrestling :wink:

I've never seen ROUND heat tapes...ours (in Canada at least) are flat and about one inch across, not very thick.

We have a heat tape wrapped around a water pipe in an uninsulated building.
I warm my hands by grasping it tightly when I shovel snow from the door.
Never gets too hot to touch, but it is definitely warm.

Seba, hopefully you don't have a cold winter like last year, but at least there was lots of snow for insulation.

Barb
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Post by hardyjim » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:18 am

I don't use the heat cables so I don't know anything about them.

I mainly use X-mas lights.
I like them because I can screw in/unscrew a few bulbs for more/ less heat.

I think in your climate you could just make a sleeve out of a couple old
blankets and some plastic wrap and cover for the coldest events or rain and cold.

I don't know if the heat cables will let off enough heat to keep those leaves warm enough.

Maybe just a light bulb( or of course X-mas lights :wink: )at the base would keep it
warm if you have enough insulation.

One thing that's a must IMO is a remote sensor(thermometer)to monitor temps,
it's just as easy to fry your palm as it is for it to get to cold.
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Post by Seba » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:29 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Stefano,
thank you for sharing your protection methods here.
Of the various palm forums, this one is the best for exchanging winter protection ideas.
As with you, and Duncan (in Canada--he was -23 oC today!), I use the thermostat controlled pipe heating cable.
I'll place mine in the next few days and will share photos.
--Erik
P.S. -- congrats on the shark pups!
That's fine Erik. I hope to see your pictures.

Stefano

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Post by Seba » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:33 am

Cowtown Palm Society wrote:Hi Seba, welcome to the forum.

Erik, Jim and others using heat tape/cables:

I was under the impression that it's too hot to have the cables touching the plant itself? Is this the case?

Thanks!
Mine are 30 watt cables. One I used them for snakes too. When I touched them I didn't feel too hot. I know there are also 100 watt models: maybe they will generate too hot.

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Post by Seba » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:46 am

hardyjim wrote:I don't use the heat cables so I don't know anything about them.

I mainly use X-mas lights.
I like them because I can screw in/unscrew a few bulbs for more/ less heat.

I think in your climate you could just make a sleeve out of a couple old
blankets and some plastic wrap and cover for the coldest events or rain and cold.

I don't know if the heat cables will let off enough heat to keep those leaves warm enough.

Maybe just a light bulb( or of course X-mas lights :wink: )at the base would keep it
warm if you have enough insulation.

One thing that's a must IMO is a remote sensor(thermometer)to monitor temps,
it's just as easy to fry your palm as it is for it to get to cold.
Sorry, but I am not agree: I think heating cables are better than Xmas lights! The firsts are available in many wattages and are professional instruments used in different situations (herpetoculture, aquaculture, hydraulic, protected crops and so on): they generate a uniform heat in all their lenght and many have a thermostat inside like mines. Even thought X-mas lights are frequently used and seems to give some results, they seem an approximate, less scientific method to me. T

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Post by hardyjim » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:14 am

Not sure what your agreeing or disagreeing with or what scientific has to do with it,
my question is whether they(cables)provide enough heat to keep your leaves protected-
I know they are very efficient at warming pipes or whatever they come in contact with.

I think they will do a fine job of keeping the area they contact warm,hope they will save the leaves too.

Definitely keep an eye on the temp inside the protection and let us know how this works for you.

I'm sure there are as many ways to protect a palm as there are people to try it.

Good luck-
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Post by Seba » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:59 pm

hardyjim wrote:Not sure what your agreeing or disagreeing with or what scientific has to do with it,
my question is whether they(cables)provide enough heat to keep your leaves protected-
I know they are very efficient at warming pipes or whatever they come in contact with.

I think they will do a fine job of keeping the area they contact warm,hope they will save the leaves too.

Definitely keep an eye on the temp inside the protection and let us know how this works for you.

I'm sure there are as many ways to protect a palm as there are people to try it.

Good luck-
I simply think that if a lamp bulb burns out duringh the night or when you are in the office, your palm could freeze in one night, especially if you live in zone 5b as you do. Heating cables never burns out as lamp bulbs do, so they last potentially forever. I live in zone 8, so I protect with heating cables only my younger palms. Maybe the best lamp bulbs in your case should be infra-red bulbs (the same used in snake cages, as they generate more hot than light), controlled by a thermostat. Moreover I prefer to not use lamp bulbs as they broke if some rain enters the palm protection. Where I live, in zone 8, cold hardy palm leaves burn only if they come in contact with the snow (and I protect all my not-Trachycarpus palms) but they regenerate very quickly in spring/summer. For example every summer my younger palms double in size (I have very hot summers)

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Post by hardyjim » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:29 pm

I see your point :D

Luckily the X-mas lights I use are made for outdoor use,water Ice or snow
are not a problem and if one burns out
the others stay lit.

The lowest number I use is 3 in my small styrofoam containers and up to 24
in the Washy enclosures,they are cheep at $7 for a 25' strand of 25 lights..

I have 26 palms outside the little Cactus house that need protecting,
that's a lot of distance to lay wire down,I apply them where I need them
and unscrew the others to save electricity/watts.

:)
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:11 pm

Both Jim and Stefano have a lot more experience than I do keeping palms alive through winter. Climate-wise, I split the difference between you guys.
I don't need electric heating yet--it is 20 oC as I type this; the lowest in the weeks forecast is -6 oC--but this discussion prompted me to start installing the heat tape I use. I figure I have time to correct any errors I'm making and hope y'all will let me know. I make a lot of rookie mistakes and appreciate having them pointed out in advance of really cold weather!

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GN ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmAV ... AG0345.jpg" height="383" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4a ... site"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmmZ ... AG0346.jpg" height="640" width="383" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PL ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmnj ... AG0349.jpg" height="383" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1s ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmn4 ... AG0350.jpg" height="640" width="383" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/k_ ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmoD ... AG0351.jpg" height="640" width="383" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

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Post by Seba » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:13 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Both Jim and Stefano have a lot more experience than I do keeping palms alive through winter. Climate-wise, I split the difference between you guys.
I don't need electric heating yet--it is 20 oC as I type this; the lowest in the weeks forecast is -6 oC--but this discussion prompted me to start installing the heat tape I use. I figure I have time to correct any errors I'm making and hope y'all will let me know. I make a lot of rookie mistakes and appreciate having them pointed out in advance of really cold weather!
When it will start freezeng protect the palms with a cage covered with some breathable tissue for plants (example of the tissue: http://www.naturalgardeneraustin.com/to ... dcages.jpg), as the snow could burn the leaves. Be sure all the connections are waterproof. In what climatic zone do you live?

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:51 am

Seba,
Nice cages.
With fronds touching the plastic as it gets cold, do you make the cages larger?

Barb
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Post by Seba » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:15 am

lucky1 wrote:Seba,
Nice cages.
With fronds touching the plastic as it gets cold, do you make the cages larger?

Barb
It is better fronds never touch the garden tissue, so the cages should be of a good size. I prefer transpirant tissue rather than plastic as I know palms could suffer from fungi without a good areation and with too much humidity, in fact some years ago I lost a Washingtonia filifera from fungi as it was totally covered by transparent plastic...

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:11 pm

My mistake, Seba, I thought the white stuff was plastic.
years ago I lost a Washingtonia filifera from fungi
What a shame you lost it...it's such a "balancing act" to keep plants dry and warm, and still provide air flow.
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Post by lucky1 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:20 pm

Hey Erik,
There's a picture of winter protection here (about the 10th or 11th pic down the page...two palms tightly wrapped in what appears to be waterproof canvas? that might be just the trick for you...without having to construct 15 shelters out of wood?

http://snowpalm.dyndns.org/eng/palm.html

Barb
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Post by igor.glukhovtsev » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:50 pm

lucky1 wrote:Hey Erik,
There's a picture of winter protection here (about the 10th or 11th pic down the page...two palms tightly wrapped in what appears to be waterproof canvas? that might be just the trick for you...without having to construct 15 shelters out of wood?

http://snowpalm.dyndns.org/eng/palm.html

Barb
Dear Barb!
Thanks a lot for a such useful link!
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Post by BILL MA » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:53 pm

Just my two cents, infra-red bulbs will incinerate any palm in a palm hut cycling on and off. Plus in a colder climate light bulbs work better dispersing heat then heat cables, there cheap too! They also work longer then you think if you don't smash them around :lol:

Heat cables in your area are more then efficient, I'm not sure they'd do the the trick in a colder climate. I guess everyone has methods of their own :lol:

Nice butia!

Bill

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Post by BILL MA » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:56 pm

Wow, I missed a whole page :roll: I'm done! Disregard anything I wrote :lol:

Logging Off!!

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Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:11 pm

Bill,
don't log off! I need your insight.

The 250 watt light (designed for chickens, don't ya know :lol: ) is in the palm hut (other thread, with photo).
Too much? It alone draws more current than all four heat tapes, by a lot. Good thing they are on different circuits.
Part of why I like the pipe heating cable is that it draws very little current, compared to heating with light bulbs which seems inefficient to me as so much of the juice gets wasted making "light." I just want heat, in moderate amounts. The heat tape seems the best way to do that. If I lived up north, I'd use more heaters--ceramic or oil--not lights.
I keep figuring I'm missing something, though, as everyone else uses the C-9 lights. I even bought a string of them but for the life of me I can't figure out how to use them usefully so they just sit there in their box.

--Erik

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Post by wxman » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:50 pm

Erik,

I will tell you one thing... lose the GFCI 3-way. You do not want any circuits for your palm huts running on GFCIs. I made this mistake my first winter protecting palms and guess what happened! It rained then dropped from 35F to 5F and I woke up to no power in my palm huts. The moisture tripped the stupid thing. I went out there, clicked it on, come inside, 5 mins later it's off again!!!!! I replaced the outlet with a regular one right then and there. No more problems. Unless you plan on standing in a puddle with the power cord in the puddle with you, lose the GFCI and save yourself a huge headache.

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Post by TerdalFarm » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:52 pm

Thanks for the tip. Rain showers started just as you wrote that. :lol:
Keep the tips coming, everyone. --Erik

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Post by wxman » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:03 pm

No problem, here to help. It's hard to think of abstract things like that. GFCI's work by sensing outgoing vs incoming current. If this varies EVER SO SLIGHTLY, they trip. Very touchy things...which means it doesn't take much moisture to have a permanent headache on your hands. Going to bed at night worrying about the GFCI tripping again was not on my favorite things to do list.

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Post by lucky1 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:26 pm

wxman, I'm puzzled by your comment:
I went out there, clicked it on, come inside, 5 mins later it's off again
My outdoor plugs are GFI-protected, or so I thought until you posted that.
If--and when--my outdoor plug bombs, I have to go to the circuit panel INDOORS and click it back ON after it tripped (but it hasn't yet).

Is that what you're talking about?
But you have to turn yours on OUTSIDE?

Or are you talking about the super-sensitive GFI's that are installed generally in bathrooms?

Barb
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Post by wxman » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:02 pm

I'm talking about the super sensitive GFCIs you see in bathrooms, also in Erik's case they make them in 3 way adapters. What you are resetting is the circuit breaker and the only way that trips is if the circuit draws more current than the rating of the breaker. GFCIs trip when there is a minute difference between outgoing vs incoming current in the circuit.

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Post by lucky1 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:13 pm

oh, OK, thanks for that explanation.

So...gotta ask.
How come people have the bathroom-type on the exterior of their home?

Barb
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Post by wxman » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:13 am

lucky1 wrote:oh, OK, thanks for that explanation.

So...gotta ask.
How come people have the bathroom-type on the exterior of their home?

Barb
It's electrical code in the United States. Anywhere where moisture is present, i.e. garage, bathroom, kitchen, outside needs GFCI outlets. Normal people don't use the outlets when it's wet outside. Remember, we're abnormal with power cords running everywhere. :shock:

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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:18 am

My ol' double wide is too old to have them, even in the bathroom.
I left the one in place out in the Sabal bed for now and will re-evaluate over the next week or so, when it finally becomes necessary. The Chammie and the palm hut don't have them--just the Sabal. --Erik
P.S. Happy Thanksgiving! I'm giving thanks for needle palms in cold weather :D

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:56 am

Yes, Happy Thanksgiving to our American friends.

Canadian Thanksgiving was mid-October...still wearing that meal on my hips :?
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Post by hardyjim » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:55 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Bill,
don't log off! I need your insight.

The 250 watt light (designed for chickens, don't ya know :lol: ) is in the palm hut (other thread, with photo).
Too much? It alone draws more current than all four heat tapes, by a lot. Good thing they are on different circuits.
Part of why I like the pipe heating cable is that it draws very little current, compared to heating with light bulbs which seems inefficient to me as so much of the juice gets wasted making "light." I just want heat, in moderate amounts. The heat tape seems the best way to do that. If I lived up north, I'd use more heaters--ceramic or oil--not lights.
I keep figuring I'm missing something, though, as everyone else uses the C-9 lights. I even bought a string of them but for the life of me I can't figure out how to use them usefully so they just sit there in their box.

--Erik





Erik


I think the first thing you want to decide is....what are your overwintering goals.

Do you want to save ALL the leaves?
If you do then obviously you need to decide what protection (as Bill said)fits with your area.

These all don't need to be in any order actually but should all be decided before you build-
you obviously don't want heating cables in a small house enclosure like Barb uses,you need a small
heater with a blower for that.

The thing I see with heating cables is,they warm the area they touch,right?
What about the rest of the palm?

Do they give off enough heat to warm an enclosure that is more than an inch or two away
from the surface of the palm?

Don't know,I haven't used them but I wouldn't think so.

For me,I have a limited amount of wattage I can pull from my house(apt),that actually is
a benefit because I can't go to crazy planting every dang cold hardy palm and cactus out there!

I also don't want to pay a fortune of my utility bills,so this year I am insulating better and using less wattage-
actually less than last year with 10 more enclosures.

I will post some pics of what I made/did this year in another thread,maybe it's not for everyone.


We are all advancing this cold hardy gardening hobby so fast with all of us sharing ideas on forums like this-
anyway,you have already seen what I am trying,basically like the Washy enclosures only smaller. :D
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Seba
Sprout
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:39 am

Post by Seba » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:26 am

TerdalFarm wrote:Stefano,
thank you for sharing your protection methods here.
Of the various palm forums, this one is the best for exchanging winter protection ideas.
As with you, and Duncan (in Canada--he was -23 oC today!), I use the thermostat controlled pipe heating cable.
I'll place mine in the next few days and will share photos.
--Erik
P.S. -- congrats on the shark pups!
Dear Erik,

I have also bought some hessian to cover all the trunks as you did, so the heating cables shouldn't disperse the heat.
Today morning at 800 am I registered 2 °C, the heating cables were running and they never seemed too hot, but a little warm, in fact 30 watt aren't a lot of energy. It means that heating cables will not burn the palms.

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TerdalFarm
Palm Grove
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Location: Manzanita, OR & Sarasota, FL
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Update

Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:41 pm

I have really enjoyed this thread, and want to keep it going to share successes and failures with this method.

Jim,
key question about goals. If I want to keep all foliage on a palm, I bring it inside the house! Or at least construct a heated palm hut over it. For the rest, I really just want to keep the growth bud/spear alive; surviving foliage is a bonus. My avatar Butia has had to put up with this maltreatment for years. It does NOT get any electric heat, just cover. It is always defoliated but recovers quickly in my hot summers. My Chammie had to deal with that for a few years as well. Last winter, as an experiment, it got a short (3' / 1 metre / 6 watt) heat tape for it
(Amazon.com details:
http://www.amazon.com/M-D-Building-Prod ... d_sim_hi_2 )
which actually let it keep most foliage despite air temps to -16 oC and several days with highs below freezing. The Chammie had its best growth year ever this year as it could start growing earlier in Spring. So, Jim, at least down here, I think the little bit of heat on the trunk/spear did help the foliage.

I am using more of it this year (details on posts above). I'll let you know come Spring how it worked for me. Please leave the Sabal palmetto out of the trial though--I am pretty sure it is doomed no matter what :(

Stefano, please let us all know your experiences with this type of product.

In response to information about the hardiness of Sabal "Louisiana" on another thread, I added heat cable to it today. Because I am curious about heat cable, I bought a different brand than the MD brand made here in Oklahoma. I bought it at my neighbourhood farm store ("Tractor Supply Company" or TSC) when I was picking up a heated chicken waterer (background in photo below). Farm stores are full of winter protection supplies every Autumn.

This pipe heating cable looks more like what Stefano is using. It is made in New Jersey and so might be more available out East. It seems to be generally similar. The thermostat is at the end, so you have to place that where you want air temps measured. For pipes, it is expected that you wrap insulation over it. I use hessian as I don't want plant tissue to get too hot, but that is probably overly cautious. These cables come on at about 38 oF and max. out at about 95 oF or so--the manufacturers don't specify, they just imply that.

I now have five heat cables running off one circuit. I have to double check the load, but it is much less than the load on the other outlet powering the "palm hut." If it works for Stefano and I this winter, pipe heating cable might be a good idea for others who need some heat but not a lot.

--Erik

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hardyjim
Palm Grove
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Fairfield Iowa 5b

Post by hardyjim » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:10 pm

Just have to see how it works..........it may also be that you don't need anything.
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Frisk
Seed
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:09 pm

Post by Frisk » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:33 pm

Hello everyone! Im new here :D
It will take me some days before i have time to look around this forum but when i have i will start spamming!

Stefano, i havnt read all the posts so maybe someone else have told you? Dont cross the heatingcable. There are a few types of heatingcables you can do that to but never recommended. They will normally get to warm and melt and cause a fire.

Im sitting here worrying about my palms outside. Its now -15!!!!! And inside my protection for my Butia its -9.6 degrees. I had some trouble with a temp. sensor and when i fixed it i got a chock! So i turned on my heatingcable, it was off because i thought it was warmer, but after 2h the temp is still unchanged so i just throwed in a candel...

I guess its dead :oops:

Cold greatings from Sweden
/Frisk

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