Winter protection for Zone 7 by novice

Discuss greenhouse related topics and outside weather protection methods.

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TerdalFarm
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Winter protection for Zone 7 by novice

Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:05 pm

As I indicated on my "Introduction" post, I am new to growing palms in the ground here on the zone 6/7 border.
I made a photo album on Picassa web:
http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... directlink
I'll try to embed photos of specific plants I have questions about in replies to this post, but I would appreciate any input on my methods and suggestions for improvements. The coldest yet this season in 19 oF but I expect it to get at least 10 oF colder in the next month or so.



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Trachy trunk wrap

Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:14 pm

Here is the Trachy I bought from Home Depot (15 gallon pot) in May. This will be its first winter. I sprayed the trunk with neem oil, wrapped it in burlap, sprayed that, wrapped that with fiberglass insulation for ducts, and then wrapped that with burlap. The slim poles are to support a 19-gallon rope-handle "much bucket" upside down as rain protection; I remove it on sunny days. The white background is an old foam-core door to slow down winds from the north. The chicken is there digging up the mulch (a mixture of pine shavings, uneaten hay and horse manure). I re-apply that every few days on account of the chickens....
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/Sxrlg ... %20227.jpg
My questions is, does this seem adequate for first winter protection of a [i]T. fortunei [/i]on the zone 6/7 border?
[url=http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1RJuVA][img]http://s3.postimage.org/1RJuVA.jpg[/img][/url]

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Post by lucky1 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:11 pm

Hi Terdal,
you have some nice specimens there, both inside and out!

Golden bamboo is very healthy...do you dig up/store your Cannas?
You say you expect about 9F -13C for your lows. Lots of snow?

That's a nice Trachy you got at HD...if it's been in the ground the entire summer, it'll have grown some roots into the surrounding soil. If it was planted only this fall, I'd be a bit worried.
It hasn't had a whole summer to make new roots.

Maybe make an entire stack of hay around it, not just loose hay.
Actual bales of hay in a rectangle or square around the base of the plant, keep stacking until you're at the top of the trachy, cover the entire thing with a piece of plywood, held down with something heavy to keep it in place during winds.

I'd do the same thing with the butia, even though you've got heat tape around it. Kind of what you're doing with your musa basjoo but solid unbroken bales are better than opened bales. Winds might shred the plastic at joints.

If you build your hay stacks entirely around each, plants are virtually guaranteed to make it if no rain/sleet gets in the top.

That dead Washy stem shows it was a plant of some size! Must've been gorgeous.

With the manure and the chicken scratching around in the soil, your plants are going to really take off next year.
As they mature, they'll gain more winter hardiness.
First year in the ground is always the riskiest.

Buy more hay. :lol:
I would pick a hay enclosure any day! I wouldn't even build a wooden palm enclosure.
I'd build a pyramid out of solid bales, with a huge one=piece tarp thrown over the top to keep rain out.

Thanks for the pics!
Barb
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Post by BILL MA » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:26 am

Erik,
Nice job! I have only a few concerns. Nothing major very easy stuff, I meant to reply last night but I was tired and I wanted to help you as much as possible.

Butia
Beautiful palm by the way! I think you might need a better heat source to keep the leaves from toasting. They are hardy but will start burning around 12f most likely under there. Lets say it's 9f for your low and your cables will most likely make 6-10f hopefully your still close if temperatures drop for some reason. For safety sakes just through one string of none led c9 lights (25) that will do the trick. You'll just need to plug them in when temps are low enough and unplug them later. You also might want to tie some ropes around your plastic so it doesn't blow off. The only other problem is getting to hot inside there. I know you guys can get some intense sun and warm days over the winter, it's possible to warm up 50+ degrees over ambient temperature. So a 60f and sunny day it could be 110f inside, not what you want at all. Kind of a pain I know but I just want to let you know, I'm sure you already have a plan for this. Through a bunch of milk jugs or 5 gallon bottle full of water in there to help keep the temperatures more consistent.

Trachy
The trachys tough, your right on the line with protection verse no protection there. I like Barbs idea about the hay bails around it, that way you can cover the top if needed when threatening weather approaches.

How much stem did you leave on the basjoo under that hay pile?

Terrific Job! They should grow like mad next year when they come out of hiding :D

Bill

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Post by BILL MA » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:40 am

Erik,
What's holding the roof up on the butia hut? I just read the post you wrote to Jim about you might get snow. I don't want it to cave in on you, you could throw a piece of plywood on top if your getting snow.

Bill

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Post by hardyjim » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:37 am

I think the heating cables need to go under the burlap.
Your large enclosure needs some serious work to get that plastic secure and I believe some cross supoprts to to keep it from flapping it's self lose.
I don't know how exposed of an area your in but I know Kansas is windy(at least as windy as Iowa!)so make sure you've got everything secure!
You should also have some remote thermometers so you can keep an eye on the heat/cold at least until you learn what your enclosures are giving you.
As Bill mentioned the heat can get intense in a G-house like structure,they almost always need to be vented on sunny days with near/above freezing temps.
I can tell you from experience that there is no worse part of growing cold hardy palms then having to go out at 2am and fight the elements
Good luck!
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Butia shelter

Post by TerdalFarm » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:05 pm

Barb, Bill, Jim,
thanks for the quick help.
For those just checking in, here is a link to the photo of the shelter my 10-year-old and I made for the 15-gallon potted Butia I bought at the local HD last May and planted in ground in between the stumps of two Washingtonia that died last March:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zZ ... directlink
The shelter was made using scrap lumber from around the farm and so is not very sturdy. It has 1" x 2" bracing on the walls and three 1" x 2" slats across the top to hold up the plastic sheeting.
That has worked for the light rains we have had so far as I erected it slightly sloped so the rain can run off. The imminent question is whether it can handle a snow. After checking it out this afternoon, my answer is, no. Snow would collapse the roof. We might get serious snow Tuesday night, although the local meteorologists are still pretty sure it will just be a lot of cold rain. That is typical around here. We get about 10" of snow each winter. It tends to fall all at once and then melt quickly. Last year all of our snow fell in one storm in late March, after a week of afternoon temps in the 80's oF that got everything growing like crazy.
This afternoon, I added a 4' x 4' sheet of OSB I found in a barn to the roof of the Butia shelter. I also put in rebar at two corners and used zip-ties to secure the uprights to those in hopes that keeps the entire structure from blowing away. I left the heating cable outside of the burlap. I have never used heating cable on plants before and was worried that it would get too hot for direct contact with plant tissue. Has anyone had that problem? So far, it does NOT feel hot to the touch when I feel it with my fingers. So, I may follow your advice and wrap it directly against the Butia trunk and put the burlap over the tape.
As for Christmas lights, I like the idea. My wife is opposed. Apparently she once had those lights ignite a Christmas tree (before I met her) and so she is afraid of them. Can anyone assure me that they are indeed completely safe on a tree outside--which is not even close to the house in the event it does ignite? Otherwise, I'll just have to accept that the leaves may well be lost this winter. I have had a small Butia in the ground the past two winters. I mulch it, wrap hay around the leaves, and put a 20-gallon bucket over it. It sufferes severe leaf damage but grows new leaves each summer. So, I figure that even if I lose the leaves of the new, larger Butia, I can get new fronds over the Summer. I'd just prefer not to....

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Post by BILL MA » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:54 pm

Glad we could help out Erik.
I'd have to say the lights are safe or at least they have been for me. I'll have plenty of them going under my washie huts this year 3 strings worth. I used one string on my trachy last winter and I felt safe as can be, just the lights alone will add some serious heat to your palm hut. I was getting a 30 degree bump last year and the top wasn't even plastic. You won't need to run them all the time anyways just when temps are going to be below 18 or so to be safe.

How often does that happen over the winter there? They have a thermostatic outlet that comes on at 20f and off at 30 or 35 that might be helpful too.

Bill

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thermostatic switch

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:32 pm

I'll check on that switch. I am trying to make things as easy as possible. The reason is that I am escaping to Belize for a couple of weeks soon and leaving my wife behind in the cold. I don't really expect her to run out in the cold to turn things on for me when I am sweating in the jungle.....

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Replies to Barb

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:59 pm

Thanks for your help here.
Let me answer some of your questions:
Golden bamboo: it does look good. It is growing a little each year. I keep hoping it will take off and run as I gave it a lot of space. The only winter protection it gets is mulch. The chickens scratch that away and expose some roots each winter, which may be slowing it down a little.

Cannas: I leave them in the ground and mulch over them. I do not use plastic sheeting or anything to keep the roots dry. I lose some in cold winters. Last winter, the coldest it ever got was 10 oF (- 12 oC). Most winters we get to the low single digits (~ -16 oC) which lets the ground freeze some if it stays like that for a few days.
I treat the Musella lasiocarpa bananas and the Elephant Ears (Colocassia) the same way. They die to the ground but come back strong, especially the Elephant Ears.
Here is a photo of a Musella lasiocarpa as it looks now:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Q4 ... directlink

Musa basjoo will overwinter without protection as well. This year, I am trying to save some stems in hopes of getting an earlier start and maybe even flowers, which I have never had. I am inspired (challenged?) by a non-gardener friend who got 25 large and tasty bananas this year. He does not know what variety he planted a few years ago in his backyard and he just lets it die to the ground. So, I figure if he can get flowers & fruit, I should be able to. For the M. basjoo clump I have had a couple of years, I cut all eight stems to ~18", sprayed with neem oil, wrapped loose hay around them and covered with a 20-gallon rope-handle bucket. For the two new ones, which I planted in May from 5-gallon pots, I cut the tallest two stems off at ~1 meter/3 feet, sprayed with neem oil, wrapped with burlap, sprayed that, and then piled loose hay enclosed in wire fencing and covered with plastic sheeting.

As for hay, I like the idea of making a "house" out of square bales around tender trees. However, that would be expensive around here. We are surrounded by hay farms. However, they all produce round bales, 6' (2 m) in diameter and weighing ~1000 lbs (500 kg). We have to use a big diesel tractor to place them in the pasture. We bought some of the small square bales (only about 90 lbs [40 kg] each) from an Amish man (they don't all have tractors) who lives an hours drive away by pickup. So, in short, I can use all the hay I want but I get it by picking up loose handfuls from the large round bales we have out in the pasture for the horses and goats.
Here is a photo of the banana enclosures for anyone who is following:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/K6 ... directlink

--Erik

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Post by oppalm » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:41 pm

Erik looks like your are on your way to becomming a cold hardy palm nut, welcome. Seems to me you are on the right path. My only advice would be to tie down the tarps and plastic very snug. The wind has a way of blowing palstic around at the worst possible time (i.e like when its snowing and 40MPH winds.) good luck.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Wind tonight

Post by TerdalFarm » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 pm

Thanks!
I just got home from work. The big cold front has not hit here yet--we are still at 40 oF with winds just now shifting to come from the NW. So, I have time to tie down the Butia shelter in the next couple of hours. Overnight we are forecast to have gusts to 35 mph and temps of about 20 oF so I very much appreciate your timely advice!

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Post by lucky1 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:33 am

Erik,
Stunned that your musa basjoo would make it without protection! :shock:
So the one in the enclosure will come out of winter as one very happy banana.

Farms generally have a lot of open land, and exposure to northwest winter winds is what drops temperatures to critical values. But the cow manure and chicken droppings warm the ground. I like the insulated door propped up, but one comment. A single door blocks the wind at its face, then "turbulence" whips around both sides, making it often windier behind it. A horseshoe--or V shape--might be more effective.

Re Xmas lights, I'm leery of them too simply because dry leaves can ignite if leaves shift as they pack down.
I also loosely pack old blankets, old towels around my yucca rostrata x. Just couldn't figure out exactly where to put the bulbs where I could get at them, if a bulb or two needed adding to the string. My big $$$$ y.rostrata will likely be toast come spring.

I tried it last Fall just to see how many lights I'd need on...could never get it right. Three bulbs on a string weren't enough, six was too many. But that's just me. Happier with the 1200 w heater with a 14 gauge extension cord, set on low.
Happy that is until the bloody remote thermometer stopped working.

A heat tape is a great idea, but agree that it has to be against the trunk (under the burlap). And one on the ground if you can keep it from shorting out (they're intended to be wrapped around pipes).

Belize, huh? Hope you take lots of palm photos.
Bringing back some seeds too? :wink:

Barb
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Replies to Barb

Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:45 am

Barb,
thanks for the reply!
About the Musa (and Musella, Colocassa, Canna), the secret here is that the ground does not freeze. The air gets very cold here, hence the USDA Zone 6/7 designation. However, we have long, sunny days at 35 oN latitude versus zone 6 up north, plus we get periodic warm winds from the south that break up the cold spells. For example, we'll have south winds this weekend keeping even nighttime temps above freezing.
The stems are another matter. The hay enclosures will work if we do not get long cold spells, but the one we are in right now might be enough to freeze the stems (we have been well below freezing for ~30 hours). I might use heat cable on a stem next winter if the hay alone does not work this winter. My friend who got fruit from his bananas lives in the city with a much better microclimate.
Speaking of microclimate, mine is horrible. As you guessed, the trees have been cleared for pasture all around. We are sited on the NW slope of a hill and my tropical garden is to the NW of the house. So, it gets blasted.
The insulated door is propped against a gazebo on one side. It does protect the V area between it and the gazebo wall. I know that becuse the chickens gather there to get out of the wind. But about the turbulence, you are right on. We had sustained strong winds Tuesday night and I watched. The door amplified the wind blast on the Trachy leaves. They show it. I'll have to figure something out before the next such blast. Thanks for pointing out the potential problem so I could look for it. The door does keep the barn mulch in place, however, and so it will at least keep soil temps up.
The soil on my farm is fabulous as it has been a free-range chicken farm for ~75 years. However, I am growing my tropicals around the pool. The construction (before I bought the place) dumped the deep excavated clay around the pool, so I have had to double-dig to mix in compost with the clay. My skill varied--and the effect is very noticeable. Where I was effective, plants grow very well. Where I left too much clay plants grow much more slowly. For any other novices out there, let me tell you: its all about the soil. Preparing it is a lot of hard work but the effect in a year or two is very dramatic. I can really tell where I was lazy or tired as plants grow slowly (even with fertilizer) compared to where I prepped the soil well.
I showed my wife what Bill MA is doing with Christmas lights to see if she would be supportive. It made her go to her Washy (in a pot in the dining room now) and tell it how much she loved it and wasn't it glad she made me bring it in? So, I'll take a pass this year and hope the heat tape works when I am in Belize.
I'm going to Belize for zoology work (study of Jaguars) but I will take photos of palms for you, and bring some seeds back. I think the Belize Botanic Garden (http://www.belizebotanic.org/) even sells some from their collection.
--Erik

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Post by hardyjim » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:00 am

Have a great trip Eric
I agree about the soil too.
Getting these plants established is a BIG part of this and having nice soft well worked soil helps the roots get established.
Also the use of heat cables(like our very own dollar Bill) under the soil is huge,esp in colder climes.
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Post by BILL MA » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:22 pm

Have a great time in Belize Erik! Sounds like you'll have a great job if you get to go to Belize and study jaguars. :D

So what happened to your exposed trachy leaves being exposed to 9f?

Bill

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:20 pm

You've done a heck of a lot of work, Erik.
Most of us would agree you've lost your Novice title :lol:

Soil -- from 75 years of free range chickens -- would be fabulous.

Next time you're building protection, maybe build it like a pyramid or a cone.
Snow would slide right off.
Whereas a flat topped structure could suffer roof cave-in from accumulating snow weight.
Or just angle it somewhat.

Yes I can see the difficulty with the round bales...serious farming country.
Aren't many farms left here that use round ones...guess everybody is downsizing :lol:

Maybe invite your wife to the forum...for your absence in Belize?
We'd love to meet her.
Barb
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Post by BILL MA » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:22 pm

I agree Barb that he's lost his novice status.

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Still a novice

Post by TerdalFarm » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:51 am

Yes I have a good job, which in this economy is spelled J-O-B. I'm just glad to get a pay check, and if it leaves enough for frivolous hobbies, so much more to be grateful for. As for Belize, my budget is tiny. I plan on camping vs. staying at a resort.
On to how this novice did during the first "winter" storm (temps down to about 9 oF/-12 oC and well below freezing for ~36 hours with very strong winds):
The Trachy with trunk wrap but exposed leaves is alive and well. The new leaf stalks are tight when I tug. The lower leaves, protected by the door, are a deep dark green. The upper leaves which were blasted by turbulence as Barb predicted are frayed and limp and showing a change in colors. I am not sure what to do before the next storm but I'll be thinking about that.
Both Butia look great.
The large Butia, which was planted in May, was in the flimsy plastic shelter with trunk heat tape and a 5-gallon jug of hot water. It looks great. The thermometer at the edge reached, "well below -5 oC" but the water jug close to the trunk did not freeze. Phew!
The small Butia is going into its third winter. It was under a large bucket with hot water bottles which froze; measured air temps were, "well below -5 oC." No leaf stem pull; most leaves look bright green except for the longest which look a little limp and pale.
The small Chamaerops humilis, also going into its third winter and with a trunk for the first time, looks super. When I removed the bucket over it today I saw that the heat tape had shifted and was not touching the trunk or leaves anywhere. It probably helped anyways, plus I think C. humilis is a tough plant that deserves more respect on this side of the Atlantic.

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Post by lucky1 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:59 am

Plants are just like people, Erik.
Trachies in particular HATE strong wind, leaves will fold up lengthwise with dessication even in summer.
Eliminate cold wind = happy trachy.

How'd your big plastic enclosure fare in that wind?

Barb

PS--camping in Belize...take us with you! :wink:
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Wind

Post by TerdalFarm » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:15 am

I'm sitting by the fire looking out the window at my palms in the cold (20 oF/-6 oC) sun and steady wind.
The flimsy Butia enclosure has held up better than I have any right to expect. It was a balmy 0 oC in there this morning!

What has me really thinking is your comment, Barb, about Trachys hating wind. You're right, and I have lots of wind.
So, why did I plant a Trachy? Why did I buy another in October (will be inside in a pot until May)? Why do I love my little Waggy (in a pot and inside each winter)? All I can come up with is that it is because I grew up in Portland, Oregon. Trachys grow well there so probably the first palm I saw as a boy was a Trachy. So to me, they are the quintessential palm.
However, Trachys may well not be the best for my Oklahoma garden. I have strong wind all year. In the winter it is cold and in the summer hot.
I need to re-think my palm choices for the future. The Butia seem to do well, although they need a little more winter protection than I would prefer to have to do for a large collection. Washies are very happy in the Summer but would need to be brought inside in the winter or enclosed and heated. The C. humilis has done well--maybe more of those? Perhaps I should get into Sabal? (After all, S. minor grows wild in one corner of the state!) My over-all happiest palm is a Chameadora radicalis. It lives in a pot and comes in winters, but it is the only palm I have that grows even in the winter and flowers every summer. Could I grow them outdoors and overwinter them?
My question is, does anyone have suggestions for palms better than Trachycarpus for a windy site that gets somewhat cold in the winter and quite hot in the Summer?

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Post by lucky1 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:38 am

Don't give up on a Trachy Erik (please).
Knowing what they do--and don't like--just helps you provide optimum siting.

For instance, we generally get a lot of wind too, and hot drying winds at that.
So I planted mine on the east side of house, 4 feet from the house.
Even though it's in a palm hut during winter, I had to plan for when the hut is dismantled (March through October).
It's protected from brutal NW winter winds, and also from extreme heat/drying westerly winds of summer (and temps up to 102F!), only getting a.m. sun.

If Trachy survives at my place, it'll survive in that location, nowhere else here.

I'm not overly fond of clumping palms, so a Needle palm isn't an option.

Maybe move your Trachy to a similar area up against the house?
Two storeys, naturally, are better than one... :D

Barb
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Post by hardyjim » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:36 pm

Most palms are pretty tough in the wind once they adjust,cold wind will decimate any palm/plant.
Trachys excused.
Put your Waggie outside and see how much those stiff little leaves move.
Best Trachy for wind T.wag.
Yea,the Sabals would work nice for you,Brazoria gets large along with S.louisiana.
Needles would also be a good choice,I wasn't a fan of these either but when you see something still around protected only by leaves and no heat after a winter of -17(F)-
you start to really respect these and now that some of my Sabals and Needles have put out some fan leaves,I am starting to see the cold hardiness that was advertised with these!
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Update in January

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:39 am

As some of you know, I am in Belize right now. I dressed in sandals, shorts and a short short this morning. My Belizean friend was appalled--aren't you cold? She was bundled up. It was about 60 oF this morning.
Yesterday I went to the Belize Botanic Garden and photographed palms, plus cycads for Steve.
My real reason for writing is not to make you jealous but to let you know that my flimsy Butia shelter seems to be working. Before I departed last week, I put in a wireless transmitter so my wife could check temps inside for me. I also put 1/2" foam insulation board on the NW side and the top. (My other sheet was taken for the henhouse during the Christmas eve blizzard, hence the East and west having just the original plastic.)
The 5 gallon water jug is in there but I didn't ask my wife to do anything with it as it is just too heavy for her. I added another layer of burlap over the heat tape.

Here is her update from this morning, with my explanations in [brackets]. Feel free to skip past animal woes if you wish to get to the plants at the end.

"It is sooooo cold here that I am feeding everyone twice a day. I also stopped at the tractor shop on 151st on the way home and they told me I was probably plugging the orange part in upside down. Came home and tried their advise and it is making bubbling sounds. Hopefully it will work now, will no by the time i get up. Next problem is the stock tank lines are frozen and I have about 25 gallons left in it. I brought the back yard hose into the house to defrost and have plans to bring in the extra 25' from the barn next. hopefully I will be able to reach the back tank and refill it. The goats are requiring water in their own area as they can no longer reach into the tank....god this cold stuff sucks! I'm still glad I didn't leave this to Danna and Robin, they would not know where to start with the problem solving that I have done this week. I even opened up a vent in the ball room [converted garage where tender plants sit by a south-facing window] for when the furnace comes on. I figure if the rest of the house is below 55, the ballroom is much colder and it won't hurt to try to warm it a little. Your palm [Butia, planted last May; details of the flimsy shelter are in posts above] reading this morning [about 9 am, when the sun had been on it for a while] was 37 inside the hut, but the air reading was 44 [inside the bedroom!]....I'll let you know if your record low of 21 is beat later this week when temps go below 4F. i'm not looking forward to that night as I am scheduled to work and the animals will be home alone."

So, what do you think? Will my large but new Butia make it through the week, when outside air temps will go to the bottom of Zone 7? What about the established small Butia under a hay-filled bucket with no supplemental heat? The Trachy? The C. humilis I am confident in, as it has made it through three winters with no supplemental heat (just a bucket) but it does have heat tape this winter as it finally got a little trunk.

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:07 am

Erik, your wife's a real trooper getting around to all the emergency stuff during the horrible cold.
It's tough on a farm with animals -- I recall from personal experience -- another story, another time.

short shirt? or short shorts? :lol: :lol:

First of all, the "ballroom" :|
55F is likely the lower limit for tender tropicals you have inside.
My musa basjoo is collapsing in the cold building, about 50F, too cold.
Your wife's right in giving those some heat.

37 inside the Butia shelter seems too low after sun had been shining on it for a while.
By Friday's projected temps, a week+ of cold is likely critical/severe damage stage.

My guess is that Butia with no heat (despite being covered) will not make it, Butia with heat 30% make it /70% won't, the Trachy: 50/50, C.humilis based on 3 year history 90/10.
I hope I'm wrong about odds against survival.

And I hope the animals get through it.
More snow for your area could make all the difference, providing more insulation as long as the palm enclosure roof is solid enough.

I hope others here have better thoughts...

Looking forward to seeing pictures of palms and cycads around Belize.
Barb
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TerdalFarm
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Ballroom

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:37 am

"First of all, the "ballroom" :|
55F is likely the lower limit for tender tropicals you have inside.
My musa basjoo is collapsing in the cold building, about 50F, too cold.
Your wife's right in giving those some heat."

Hmmm...the living area of the house is less than 55 oF! The "ballroom" was a garage converted by the previous owners to an entertainment room. They did not insulate it. I insulated the ceiling, but not the walls. Thus, it gets cold in there but does not freeze. It has huge windows to the East for morning light and one to the south for the afternoon. We have two lights on timers to give them evening light and a little warmth.
I think most of the "tenders" will make it as I try to buy tough "tender" plants. For example, the palms in there are:
Trachy (bought too late in Fall to plant), Brahea, Jubea, Waggy, Sabal mexicanum 9x2) and my favorite, Chamedeara radicalis. Two sago palms, a big Brugmansia and some small mexican petunia, lantanta, rudbeckia starts and a late, small tomato. Oh, a couple of gingers as well. The Hibiscus rosa-sinensis, Washy and a few others are in the dining room at a toasty 55 oF.

Last winter, everything was in the dining room except the gingers. It was very crowded, and the gingers did fine in the relative cold. Of course, this winter is much colder than the last.
Last edited by TerdalFarm on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lucky1 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:45 am

Erik,

Glad those ballroom varieties are hardy ones, after all!
I thought you had VERY sensitive tropicals in there.
Those varieties are probably happily growing new spears!

Barb
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Tough tenders

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:08 pm

Yes, I buy tough tenders. The reason is we get some unexpectedly cold (>25 oF) weather for a brief period in October and April most years. Thus, everything that lives in pots on the patio has to be able to survive a surprise cold snap that we did not see coming at a time of year I am very busy with work.
Last edited by TerdalFarm on Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Odds

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:15 pm

"My guess is that Butia with no heat (despite being covered) will not make it, Butia with heat 30% make it /70% won't, the Trachy: 50/50, C.humilis based on 3 year history 90/10.
I hope I'm wrong about odds against survival." --Barb

Would anyone else care to make predictions?

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Post by hardyjim » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:17 pm

I'll go with...It makes it, Butia and Chamaerops should be close in hardiness buy we shall see.
I need to go see what the temps in my ballroom are right now :wink:
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Ballroom

Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:24 pm

The ballroom has stayed at about 40 oF so I'm not worried about anything in there I care about. With a furnace vent open now, it should stay above freezing even at the end of this week when it gets to ~0 oF outside.
If I was home, I'd be outside adding protection, C9 lights and keeping the water jugs filled with hot tap water nights, but I can't ask for that as my wife works nights and has her hands full with the animals during the few hours each day she is awake.
I may be shopping for Sabal this Spring. I hope not--those Jelly palms looked stunning all Summer. It was fun to see some at the Belize Botanic Garden yesterday. They looked so happy here in January.

Does anyone else want to give odds?

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Post by BILL MA » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:00 am

Erik,
I can't remember if your none heated butia under the barrel was stuffed with hay or leaves if it was it will make it most likely, might not look the
best come spring but if it's alive you'll just have to baby it all summer and come up with a better protection method for next winter.

With the other covered butia, moisture is key. Since it's dry in there and the trunks heated I'm sure that one will be ok too. The fronds will most
likely be toasted. Don't cut them off until the temps warm up! The palm should still be able to pull carbs out of them if there still somewhat alive.

Trachy will most likely have spear pull unless you covered it since the last time I saw it. With some treatments in the spring it should rebound with
a full head by late summer/fall.

Don't worry to much it's a learning process, next year you won't have any problems unless the power goes out. That's another story all together.

Bill

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Post by lucky1 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:23 am

Erik,

Despite worrying, I'm voting for Bill to be correct!

Barb
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Thanks for the optimism

Post by TerdalFarm » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:57 pm

Bill, the non-heated Butia (my "avatar" image) has made it through the past couple of winters with nothing but a bucket for the coldest nights. It loses most of its foliage but bounces back. I was counting on another mild winter, but wanted to lose less foliage so I did pack it with loose hay, then put a gallon water jug and a liter water bottle on the SW side. The morning sun warms them, always to thawing before night. If I was home, I'd be re-filling them with hot water each evening but there is no way the wife can do that for me. She is working five 12 hours shifts in a row, taking an hour each way with the snow, and dealing with animals (and now a broken water pipe to the barn).
Last time I checked online, soil temps were still in the low 30s oF (0 oc). There is a good snow cover. So, I'm counting on the roots not freezing, although the coming few days may change that. As of yesterday, the pool had not frozen. It is a salt-water pool with the pump going 24/7. I assume it will freeze regardless in the next few days.
The large (but new--May) Butia in the shelter still has not gotten colder than 21 oF a foot out from the trunk, so I may be getting 10 oF of protection. The high winds coming tonight/tomorrow may lessen that, and with our lows into the low single digits coming up it may well get to 10 oF or so in there where the leaves are. I am counting on losing the leaves but hopeful the trunk/spear will be OK with the heat tape and several burlap layers.
The Trachy received layers of burlap on the spear and lower leaves before I left, plus an inverted bucket (suspended on stakes to block more wind and the snow. It was only planted in May but had a very deep root ball and I've mulched the heck out of it. That gives me hope, but I have killed Trachys before and may do it again this week.
The C. humilis was also packed in hay before getting the bucket and has heat tape, too. My wife did add a 3 gallon water bag which may help buffer the temp drop some, especially if the heat tape keeps the water from freezing. It is also mulched heavily.

With the prolonged cold, I'm pretty sure the Musa basjoo in their large hay enclosures will get cold to the core of the stems. Oh well. The roots will make it.

P.S. down here everyone is wearing sweaters and drinking hot tea. It hasn't gotten up to 70 oF in days! :)

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Post by BILL MA » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:19 pm

Erik,
That being said you'll be fine! I'm glad you covered your Trachy too. I'm willing to bet with all that hay around your Basjoo's there trunks will be fine
as well. It would take more cold then your getting I think to reach them, time will tell. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Sweaters for 70f that's kind of funny, people in S. Florida are kinda wimpy like that too.

Bill

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First glimpse

Post by TerdalFarm » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:00 am

I just got home from two weeks in Belize a couple of hours ago. I had a great trip, tempered only by extreme guilt at my poor wife stuck in a near-freezing house with no water and ~100 animals to tend. And having to work extra shifts. And having car trouble. Needless to say I did not ask her for extra palm protection. She is the one who wants them all dug up and brought into the house each October.
So far since getting back from the airport I've been taking care of two goats born this morning. My does have a bad habit of delivering in the coldest weather. I lose some to hypothermia every winter. My wife found these in time and put them in the barn under a heat lamp with hay and water for the mom. If they survive the night they'll do fine as we are expecting a nice warm-up Wednesday.
I then spent time hauling water in buckets to animals for parts of the farm where the pipes are still frozen (most of it).
I won't really check the palms until tomorrow when the highs should be in the 50s oF. Right now it is 30 oF (-1 oC) and will be down to ~20 oF tonight. What I can see already: the Trachy will lose pretty much all foliage. As of now, the spear looks healthy.
The large Butia in the shelter looks fine when I peek in, even the fronds which are not wrapped up (I only used heat tape and burlap wrapping on the trunk and spear). The 5-gallon water jug in the hut was not frozen. I'll know more in a few weeks, but right now I'm optimistic about it.
I'll have details and photos in a day or two.

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Post by lucky1 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:16 pm

Eric, welcome home.

thanks for that update when you're so busy.
Wow, your wife did have her hands full the last two weeks!
Hope the new babies make it.

Glad that things look darn good!

Looking forward to seeing those photos!
Barb
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Post by lucky1 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:52 am

Eric,

How are things looking in the light of day?

Barb
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Light of day

Post by TerdalFarm » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:07 pm

Barb,
I've been busy but I took a few minutes after checking on the baby goats to lift the 20g buckets off the small Butia (my avatar image) and the C. humilis, lift the similar bucket on stakes over the Trachy crown and open a flap on the large Butia (in the shelter). The air is warm now at 54 oF so I feel it is safe to keep them uncovered. In fact, the forecast for the next week calls for temps to stay above freezing (lows of 34 oF/1 oC).
One by one through my four outdoor palms:
Small Butia (no supplemental heat; wrapped in hay with bucket): looks good, what I can see of it. I didn't remove the hay to tug the spear, but the one frond I can see looks green. I am used to losing pretty much all foliage so I assume I'll lose this leaf.
Large Butia (with heat tape on trunk/spear, in plastic greenhouse): looks very good. Fronds, which were in air to the high single digits a few times, are still green. We'll see, but I'm confident in the trunk/spear.
Trachy (trunk wrap + large bucket inverted on stakes to keep the crown dry): the fronds all look severely damaged. I assume I'll lose them all. The spear is still green and is not loose when I tug it. I picked some ice out of the crown (from snow that blew in). I may spray some copper fungicide in there. Right now, I predict the trunk/spear will survive if I can keep it from rotting.
C. humilis (heat tape on trunk; wrapped in hay under bucket): I left the hay and burlap on so I can't see much. The little bit of leaf tissue I see looks green. It is a tough plant.
Our low in this system was ~3 oF (from a personal weather station <1 mile/1 km away). It stayed below 20 oF for a few days straight. The soil in our area stayed "warm" at about 34 oF/1 oC at a depth of 4"/10 cm per a State website maintained for farmers. That give me hope for recovery of the palms, plus the passionflower, bananas, elephant ears and Canna.
I'm still too busy to work with photos yet but will try to do that soon.
--Erik

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Post by lucky1 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:36 pm

Sounds much better than what was feared, Eric.
The soil in our area stayed "warm" at about 34 oF/1 oC at a depth of 4"/10 cm per a State website maintained for farmers
That is the most encouraging information.
The snow cover mitigated duration of cold.

Thank goodness.

Thanks for the update when you're so busy.

Hopefully there'll be a pic of baby goats too when you have time!

Barb
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