Cool vs Warm Winter Test on Brahea armata twins

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Cool vs Warm Winter Test on Brahea armata twins

Post by lucky1 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:51 am

Both plants are potted and indoors as of mid-to end-Sept., and never experience frost.
Doing a test on 2 juvenile Brahea armata, same size/age/parentage/soil mix to see which will grow faster, i.e. do palms need to "rest" in winter:
(The "alkaline" tag label is to remind me to NOT use Miracid fertilizer on either plant).
Both spend summer outdoors in full-day sun and drying winds.

(a) one is in the cold (barely-heated) building, kept dry in a south window, consistently ~10C 50F.
(b) one is in basement near wood stove, watered/fertilized lightly every 2 weeks like summer, full-spectrum fluorescent lights on 16 hrs, max 32C 90 F, min ~21C 70F.

This pic is B. armata in cold building (even the clover is drying up from lack of water):
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5004/524 ... bf3058.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04165" />

Following pic is B.armata in warm basement (coffee grounds added around stem to deter soft-scale, top-dressed with sand to deter fungus gnats :| )
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5290/521 ... 4feefb.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04141" />

Any guesses as to results in, say, a year or two?
Barb


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Post by Paul Ont » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:28 am

Barb. Good experiment! Here is what I see happening: Very little difference in growth between the 2. The warmer one will grow slightly faster, perhaps putting on an extra leaf. My reasoning is that plants from arid regions are genetically programmed to grow slowly, and fertilizer has little effect... Hope I am wrong and the warm one puts out 4 leaves for every one the cold guy does!

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Post by TimMAz6 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:24 pm

cool test Barb. I'll bet the heated palm will grow much more but will become 'leggy' and when you place it outside in spring the 'leggy' leaves will damage.
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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:34 pm

Barb,
I'm also excited by this experiment.
I really like Brahea. I think of it as an "almost" hardy palm, like Washy but a lot cooler. 8)
All of mine are in pots in the heated palm hut. Yes, I dug up the one I foolishly planted last April in poorly draining soil. :oops:

As to the research question, I'm very curious. I also let my temperate-climate palms have a cool period each winter but have no idea whether there is any basis for that. I'd like to make a prediction, but I really don't have one--just curiosity.
--Erik

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Post by DesertZone » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:11 pm

TimMAz6 wrote:cool test Barb. I'll bet the heated palm will grow much more but will become 'leggy' and when you place it outside in spring the 'leggy' leaves will damage.
I agree with the above.

Barb, the coffe grounds can make the soil acidic. I don't know if that is what you want?
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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:19 pm

I hadn't thought about that.
Do you all measure soil pH? If so, how?

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Post by oppalm » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:32 pm

my guess is that the palm kept warmer will have a much bigger and healthier root system and in the long term (beyond two years) will be a much bigger palm. I base this on my experience with sabal minors that I kept inside in a well lit basement bedroom versus 2 that were kept in an unheated garage with fluorescent lighting. the garage is attached to the house and may see low temps down in the low 30'sF. Interesting experiment and keep up your good work.
Kent in Kansas
where it's cold in winter (always)
and hot in summer (usually)
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Post by DesertZone » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:19 pm

TerdalFarm wrote:I hadn't thought about that.
Do you all measure soil pH? If so, how?
It is very easy, they come in paper strips, get them at a garden center.
Shoshone Idaho weather
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Here's to all the global warming pushers, may your winters be -30 below and four feet of snow in your driveway. Because I want you happy.
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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:30 pm

I'll do that.
I got a "rapitest" soil pH metre but it reports 7 for everything, so I gave up.

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:43 pm

Well, ever since I heard palms "don't go dormant", I've been wondering.
Palms have no cambium layer (with sap up in summer and down in winter), so do they REALLY need a rest?

Year-round growth would need more resources for a palm both indoors and out...fertilizer, water.
But with no limitation from cold or light, a palm should/might respond...albeit maybe not a Brahea.
It might even be easier for the palm, rather than struggling with its typical cold winter conditions.

Thanks for all the comments.
A couple of points:

leggy: from full-spectrum? Agree it's a poor substitute for 18 hrs of "real" daylight. I'll expect sunburn on the "warm" palm next summer.

coffee grounds: I worried it would lower the pH so I purposely put only a bit around the stem (versus my 5-foot grapefruit tree in a 50 gallon pot, which has two inches of coffee grounds as top-dressing, it loves a 5.5 pH). This Brahea was near the sabal palmetto that had soft scale, don't want to take any chance an ant deposited a scale egg or two in the soil. Anything that wants to crawl up the stem has to cross the coffee grounds. :twisted:

Appreciate everyone's input.

Will do pics every couple of weeks (or more often if I get REALLLLLLLY bored this winter).
Barb
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Post by lucky1 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:49 pm

Erik, even years ago I heard that the U.S. had "county extension agents" for farmers to avail themselves of state services, i.e. soil testing, etc.
And I was jealous it was free. We Canadians pay between $50 and $75 for a proper soil test...includes all sorts of stuff with agent's recommendations, i.e. if Calcium is too high, Boron miniscule (usually). Lots of crops/plants need trace elements, and those are listed as well as deficiencies, with "normal ranges" stated on a graph.

We do a soil test every 5 or so years, pH steadily decreases (albeit slowly) with continued use of synthetic fertilizers. Sprinkling dolomite lime sweetens it up again easily.
Barb
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Post by lucky1 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:26 am

Status 11 days later:

"Cold" Brahea in cold building (40F) (BRRRRR!) Good way to flatten clover!
Its little spear is very blue, but not pushing.
No sign of the small soft-bodied scale infection of last summer.
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5130/526 ... cc4bf7.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04211" />

"Warm" Brahea, looking less blue than its twin, but opening short frond. Full spectrum lights are a poor replacement for sun.
Have kept up treatments of hydrogen peroxide/Q tip (also rubbing alcohol on Q tip) as soft-bodied scale appears to think it's summer.
Need to keep on top of the scale problem as 20+ juvenile Foxtails are adjacent. Working so far I think.
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/526 ... a000e1.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04213" />

I even relocated a few ladybugs that were hanging around on south windows throughout the house.
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5084/522 ... f66a44.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04148" />

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Post by TerdalFarm » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:39 pm

Thanks for the update!

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Post by TimMAz6 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:10 pm

keep us updated!!
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Post by lucky1 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:16 am

cold building is 8C 46F.
Brahea didn't look good, leaves folded, must be too dry, so it received a light watering.

<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5089/536 ... 145487.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04330" />


Brahea twin in warm basement:

<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/536 ... 8f6b7e.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04344" />

I'm disappointed the petiole isn't longer in the warm basement Brahea.

Next update: mid February.
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Post by TimMAz6 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:38 pm

keep the updates coming Barb!
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Mid-February

Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:16 am

"Warm winter" twin not growing, despite getting ample water, dilute fertilizer and artificial light for ~16 hours daily.:

Artificial lights affect photo color (it's as blue as its twin).
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/546 ... 41ca8d.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04501" />

Next picture is the "cold building" twin with leaves folding lengthwise from water deficit and just-above freezing temps:
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/547 ... e04f02.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04497" />

So far, the warm winter monocot appears to "rest" in winter, obviously programmed into its genes, despite "good" conditions.

The real test will be to see what happens to the warm winter twin during summer.
It might fry in the sun vs its cold winter twin.

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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:40 am

Interesting!
I guess I thought the "warm" Brahea would have grown more.
My five Brehea, all in pots, are in the "palm hut". They get good light and kept growing right up through January. I was glad I left them there despite occasional dips a little below freezing vs. bringing them into the "ballroom" like the W. filifera.
Then that record cold a couple of weeks ago that brought the insulated and heated palm hut down to +8 F. :(
Brahea look bad. Can't tell if fatal or not, but I will say Brahea should NOT be allowed to see single digit F (negative double digit C) temps. :shock:
--Erik

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:46 am

Good points, Erik.
Your brahea in palm hut may have done better had they been planted since your soil temps have proven to stay relatively warm during snowy winters.
Time will tell.

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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:08 am

With hindsight, I should have taken them out of the "palm hut" (=temp. greenhouse) and put them in the house three weeks ago. Then piled up hay over the C. radicalis in the ground in there. Oh, well.

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:08 am

I know that "oh well" feeling, too, Erik :?

But since Chamaedorea are more touchy to cold than Brahea generally, if anything should've gone indoors versus being planted, the Chamaedorea should've gone inside (had they been in pots).
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Post by hardyjim » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:59 pm

I just just ordered a Brahea "super silver" and a Princeps-

what else ya gonna do in winter :?
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Post by TerdalFarm » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:19 pm

Uh, shop for needle palms? I don't live in such a balmy palmy climate as Iowa or BC :lol:

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Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:53 pm

Jim, are you getting it off eBay?
Brahea super silver are...well...super :D

I tried starting some brahea ss seeds couple of yrs ago, none germinated.
They're so silver, they look white, especially with patio lights shining on them at night (similar to Copernicia hospita, another stunner, didn't germinate either).

Balmy? ya right.
We're supposed to be -18C 0F tonight.
We DID have spring -- last month :shock:
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Post by Okanagan desert-palms » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:56 pm

Barb that Brahea needs a big drink of water. It`s not a good sign when the fronds fold up like that. I`ve lost my fair share of palms when they start to fold that way. Just a heads up.

John
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Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:32 pm

Thanks John, will do.
All the palms in the cold building show some folding, but most (especially the old CIDP) hate cold wet soil... :?
But you're right...better they live. :oops:

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Post by TimMAz6 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:09 pm

keep the updates coming Barb!!
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Post by lucky1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:47 pm

Pics aren't great but here's April update:

First pic cold building Brahea
Looks like dry older fronds are toast from severe water deficit over winter (even the clover died).
But not a bug on it, nice looking clean fronds.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/5638922248/" title="DSC04648 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5181/563 ... 7ceb95.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04648"></a>

Second pic warm winter Brahea under grow lights 16 hrs/day in warm basement.
Even though this one looks somewhat larger, it really hasn't grown.
But it's a mess...has soft scale (all those little beige bumps), and fungus gnats are almost pole-vaulting through the soil layers :shaking:
The coffee grounds haven't helped the bug situation one iota, but likely lowering the pH way too much for this 7.2 pH-loving palm.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/5638922264/" title="DSC04653 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/563 ... 2851e2.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSC04653"></a>

Barb
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Post by lucky1 » Sun May 29, 2011 11:25 am

Brahea armata twins...
in photo: At left = warm winter, at right = cold building

Results from warm winter twin now beginning to show up:

Good: new frond is larger/onger.
Bad: not as blue, and has soft-bodied scale like everything else that overwintered under lights in the warm basement.


Results Cold winter twin:

Good: compact and very blue
Bad: the lower leaves that folded from lack of water in the cold building did not recover, and are falling off.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/5771720261/" title="DSC04731 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2679/577 ... 930f19.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSC04731"></a>

Barb
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Post by TerdalFarm » Sun May 29, 2011 1:07 pm

Thanks for keeping us updated, Barb.
Do you have a general conclusion?
----------------------------------------------
Not being as good a scientist at home as at work, I treated all of my Brahea the same and killed all of them :cry:
But treated both of my W. filifera the same (=brought them inside) and they are doing great now. :)
My conclusion: bring palms inside for winter if at all possible. Palms do not like -30 C temperatures.

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Post by lucky1 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:17 pm

Do you have a general conclusion?
Although full results won't be obvious until this time next year, I do conclude at the end of winter:

Brahea armata in cold building ~45F, sunny south window = OK but it should have received water more frequently than once every 3 months. No bugs at all!

Brahea armata in warm house under lights = larger new leaf but pest (soft-bodied scale, fungus gnats, spider mites) may not be worth the effort.

It'll be interesting to see if the warm-winter Brahea will now just stop (because it had its summer indoors?).
I expect its twin from the cold-building will now start to grow.

We'll see with future comparisons.

Barb
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Post by zomble » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:29 am

I loooked a time or two Barb,

The second (cold storage) looks much greener.

No bugs has to be a good thing...I think.

:D

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Post by palmtreecod » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:06 am

Image

For the basement one, and

Image

this for the one by the window.

In two years. :D



ahahahahahahahaha ;D

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Post by lucky1 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:43 am

That basement one won't fit :lol: :lol:

I'll be happy with the second one.
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Post by lucky1 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:09 pm

Both were outside all summer, facing south, no shade.

Test update:
Almost identical to last report (and last photos) :cry:

Warm winter Brahea armata: bigger than twin by almost half, but hit with soft-bodied scale AGAIN this winter.
Yes, that's cinnamon around the base (hope it works, thanks Tim!)

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6884680891/" title="005 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7203/6884 ... 9551_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="005"></a>


Cold winter Brahea armata: has a nicer -- almost blue color but my camera doesn't show that!!! -- and no bugs, but still small.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/southslope/6864139759/" title="019 by edible_plum, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7196/6864 ... 2a06_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="019"></a>

Conclusion:
They would never survive here outdoors; but if they were planted outdoors, they wouldn't grow the next year.
And if you kept them indoors in winter, they'll grow and get scale because it's too warm. And later they won't fit.

End of Test.
:laughing3:

Barb
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Post by TimMAz6 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:22 am

Hi Barb

Thanks for the update. Test over?...........it's just started!

Continue the test with one inside and one outside with heated protection. We can monitor growth rates. This would be fun to watch!
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lucky1
Arctic Palm Plantation
Posts: 11325
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:31 pm
Location: Vernon BC, Zone 5a or 5b (close to 6A!)

Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:13 am

Continue the test with one inside and one outside with heated protection. We can monitor growth rates. This would be fun to watch!
Sheesh...ok

gotta get another heater & thermocube for next year...and some clear structure.

Come over and help me build it next September :clown:
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TimMAz6
Palm Grove
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Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:15 am
Location: Massachusetts USDA 6b

Post by TimMAz6 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:21 pm

I'll come by and help........no problem................but I need a ride..........can you be here by 8am? If you leave now I can be at your place in 2 weeks! :P
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lucky1
Arctic Palm Plantation
Posts: 11325
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:31 pm
Location: Vernon BC, Zone 5a or 5b (close to 6A!)

Post by lucky1 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:35 pm

OK I'll go via Florida...may not see you.
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TimMAz6
Palm Grove
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Location: Massachusetts USDA 6b

Post by TimMAz6 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:59 pm

No No......can't go the warm way. You'll need to stay in Canada until you reach New Hampshire then you can go south. :twisted:
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