Sabal palmetto having problems

[TerdalFarm]

Long-time members remember the big (30 gallon pot, 2 meter height) cabbage palm my lovely wife ("W") brought home last Spring. Here is the photo collection:
viewtopic.php?t=2740
It seemed to grow well over Summer: two new fronds fully emerged; two spears coming along nicely, although slowly lately as the weather cools. The huge fronds present when W brought it home are all still there, albeit suffering some spotting and yellowing. I figured it was normal transplant shock.
What I do not understand is why the two new fronds have died. They turned pale from tips inward over a couple of weeks. This started before the first frost. The two new fronds are now extremely pale and crisp to the touch, as if they had been cut off and left out to dry (photos below). The two new spears seem normal, as do the original outer leaves which look OK but not great.
My question is, what could cause this?
As a "control", I planted two Sabal mexicana, also from containers (albeit 5 gallon) at the same time in the same bed with the same soil. All three received the same watering regime and fertilizer (not much--a bit of Stokes palm fertilizer) and weather. The two two S. mexicana look great, despite the cold weather recently (photo at bottom).
Any ideas?

Cabbage palm at dawn:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4u ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TNbVw ... AG0326.jpg" height="478" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

Cabbage palm at sunset:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4G ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TNcqn ... AG0330.jpg" height="800" width="478" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

Sabal mexicana for comparison:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1z ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TNbVo ... AG0325.jpg" height="800" width="478" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

[lucky1]

Holy cow, Erik, what the heck!?!

OK...first things first.
You said Stokes palm fertilizer.
Is that the palm spikes? If so, they're really slow to dissolve apparently.

Did it ever receive any epsom salts?
How often do you water the palms? (thinking that the mexicana likes it drier and it's great-looking).
A palm that size needs a good amount of water the first year it's in the ground. Then it can handle less, even some drought, but not the 1st year.
http://floridapalmtrees.net/sabal-palm-sabal-palmetto/

I'm guessing it's not 20 feet from where the Butia capitata croaked...any fresh manure in the soil from the chickens? that'd burn, especially with low watering.

I'm stunned and saddened it's sick.
But hopefully others will have some good advice.
Barb

ps--I meant to add: the damage in pic is not from the recent cold...

[lucky1]

I goofed, Erik.
Sabal mexicana needs lots of water.

And this interesting paragraph on Sabal palmetto:

Large specimens may be purchased as hurricane cut having a small root ball and an even smaller crown denuded of leaves. These should be planted in summer when the soil is warm in order to encourage strong root growth. Such specimens must be regularly watered and fertilized during the growing seasons and very well protected during winters for their first three years. It can be difficult to get Palmetto to grow well inland away from the coast.

From here:http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Coldhard ... html#Sabal

I'm still betting it was water deficiency.

Waiting to hear other opinions.

[macario]

Hello barb is right I have a few different sabals and they need to be watered alot. I water mine 20 min 3 times a day. I grow mine next to my bananas because I water them all the same amount. I hope your palm recovers for you its very nice.

[canadianplant]

Eric, im not an expert but....

When i got my Livistonia Chinensis ( chinese fan palm), this happened to me also. It took it a while to really settle in to its position. Then i shoked the crap out of it by not acclimitizin it before bringing it out. All the lower and mid leaves dried up and died.

How do the trunks feel ( what little truck there is)?

This almost look slike my houseplants when i give them too much water........ and sometimes not enough ( usualy when its too much, and i rotted the roots, the stem or trunk starts to go soft at the base, and creeps its way up). Is this the palm you were worried about its drainage?

Could this also be a humidity issue? Palmettos are from a slightly more humid climate then OK correct?

I almost wanted to say too much sun, then i remembered these grow in semi arid regions of mexico and the carribean ( i keep messing these up with sabal minor, who needs a bit of protection from intense sun), but mabey too much sun with too little water, plus the winds you get there = dry and crispy palm:S

ID give it a good good deep watering ( a half hour under a soaker hose, but then again, too much water now may only increase the problem:S

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, everybody. You are what makes the forum work!
Barb, the Stokes palm fertilizer is a time-release granulated product.
http://www.stokestropicals.com/stokes-t ... ilizer.htm
I don;t use much. I had also put the old osmocote in the panting hole, along with compost (too much?).
It has received epsom salts 2x, plus the fall K followed a week later by that 2nd epsom salts.
So, I doubt nutrient lack is the issue.
It is far (across the pool) from where the dead Butia was. Everything else in that bed has done well, incl. the two Sabal mexicana and a Trachy nearby. So, whatever the problem is is is specific to that one plant.
The water hypothesis is quite possible. We have been dry, in near drought conditions, lately. I cut back on watering after the Butia died in hopes to inhibit soil fungus. I assumed that with the deep rots this huge Sabal would be fine. But, water is cheap so it got a bunch of water this morning. We had highs of 26 oC or so with strong winds, so I figure water is appropriate anyway.
Any other suggestions?

[lucky1]

Your Stokes fert is 12-4-12 with minors, so that's fine.
3 apps of epsom salts, Fall potassium.

With less than optimum water during a very hot summer (and now Fall), I suspect your compost and the fungi that all compost harbors...

Compost in the butia's root zone, compost in sabal's root zone.

Maybe the water deficiency, heat and the compost "action" compounded what would normally be nature's slow decomposition process.
Low water levels could've made the compost too hot, even two feet down at the roots?

I'm stumped, Erik.

[TerdalFarm]

It got plenty of water during the summer heat--as did the dead Butia.
I guess I'll go with the too much compost idea. Nothing to do about that now, but I'll know for the future.
--Erik

[Okanagan desert-palms]

Wow Erik not again?Is there any way to dig down to the just outside of where the roots are to take a soil sample. Then you will know if it`s getting enough water or too much.I know it sounds like a hell of a lot of work.The only way to know for sure is too get a sample to see what those roots are dealing with. Maybe something in the soil from years gone by? It would be a shame to see that Sabal not make it!

John

[gpenny]

Erik
It's normal for the lower ("oldest") leaves of Sabals to die back as the palm grows. However, the leaves you are losing are not the oldest so that is not normal. I remember when you got that palm and asked for advice on planting it I cautioned about "loving it to death". I think that was in reference about not trying to make the soil to rich when planting and also not to overwater. In habitat they reach their peak of condition in almost pure beach sand! The only ones I ever lost were mature palms that I am convinced I overwatered because it was so hot that summer. Wish I could be of more help but I have never had a young one do that.

[hardyjim]

Erik

The problem has to be a root issue and I am afraid you may just have to wait to find out
as there is no way of preforming an autopsy on a living plant,as mentioned though digging down
into the soil may provide an answer-you would need to know what your looking for though.


What can you really do at this point but wait and see if it recovers?

I am guessing you can't bring it inside even if that was necessary but as John mentioned try digging,
if you find the same situation as with the Butia...............TBC

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, everybody.
I think gpenny is right that I killed it with kindness. I did add 100 lbs each of play sand and pea gravel, but I also added compost, which is here on the farm in abundance. And probably too rich, as Barb has politely hinted over and over.
Sabal roots are very sensitive. I learned that recently when I tried to field dig and transplant strap-leaf S. minor from a local garden. It did not work well. So, I don't think it will be a good idea to dig the big one up now.
My plan--please give input--it to protect the spear and hope for the best come Spring. I'll wrap the spear, which still looks OK, with my favorite plumber's heat tape. Wrap that with burlap ("hessian"). Bind the dying fronds around that protected spear as wind protection. And then pray. I think the prayer is key in this protection plan.
What do you all think? I doubt it will work, but it seems better then treating the expensive palm like an annual....
--Erik

[gpenny]

Your right about the transplanting part. Sabals are easy to transplant as 1-2 leaf seedlings and as mature (trunked) adults. Anything in between is extremely difficult! The only time I concern myself with watering or fertilizing Sabals is when their in a pot! Once their in the ground I forget about them! (except for the two mature ones I lost by watering every other day). As long as the spears ok all is not lost!

[canadianplant]

Once again Eric im no pro, but you rplan sounds good. Maby protect it from the rain during the winter ( kinda like jims cacti).

As for killin gwith kindess, that was something I had to tell my clients when i ran the fish department. IF you clean or do to much work to you fishtank, you dont let it reach a natural equilibrium. The same goes for the soil. Adding doo much salts manure and fertilizer can in fact kill all the beneficial organisms in yoursoil, forcing you to add more, and more

Eric, are you familiar with the book "Gaias Garden: A guide to homescale permaculture? It goes into depth about vcreating all types of soil, withut using cazy amounts of fert, by using plants and nautre as your helper instead of against it. IF you want i can email u the book ( or anyone if you like, and this file is as far as I know virus free), Just PM me your emai, and ill gladly send it to anyone.

[DesertZone]

There is a disease that is spreading in the south in cabbage palms. Could be?

[TerdalFarm]

Do you know the name of it?

[DesertZone]

Do you know the name of it?

I don't, but it is killing the palms in florida. Very easy to find info on.

[canadianplant]

heres what ive found eric:

http://flrec.ifas.ufl.edu/palm_prod/pdf ... lorida.pdf
http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/ ... s-florida/
http://lee.ifas.ufl.edu/Hort/GardenPubs ... ldwell.pdf

The picture of the palm in the 3rd link, looks eerily similar to yours eric :S But there is something you may want to try......

Acetacylic acid (ACA or asperin), has been known to cause canna lily, and other plants to stimulate a systemic resistance. Cannas sprayed with this, once every 2 weeks witha 1:10 000 solution to ACA, all new growth showed no cnna virus at all. The systemic resistance is almsot liek our immune systems, except the systemic resistance is a natural plant "attibute" that you can force into play with the use of ACA spray.

Heres the article:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/730/

[Stevea07]

Were all your Sabals planted on a bed of pebbles or just this one you are having troubles with?

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, cp.
That is a possibility. This palm came from south Florida (Homestad area). They growers might have figured that a palm going to Oklahoma is an annual and so dumped infected plants on the old man who trucks them up here for his road-side palm stand.
Steve,
good point. I didn't use the sand and pea gravel mix for the smaller S. mexicana. They have received less care overall. Goes back to gpenny's "killed with kindness" hypothesis (above). Do you think the gravel bed was a problem? If so, how?
Remember, despite my post # I am a novice palm grower and make a lot of rookie mistakes!
--Erik

[lucky1]

killing the palms in florida

Called simply "LY", lethal yellowing.
Something to do with Potassium getting washed out too quickly out of Florida's sandy soils.

[hardyjim]

Thanks, cp. Do you think the gravel bed was a problem? If so, how?

--Erik

Air pockets could kill the roots.

[canadianplant]

Since were not sure what it is, id say its safer to leave it alone, and let it do its thing......

[Stevea07]

Erik,

Cabbage palmettos love water but the pebbles and sand do not hold water so if your clay soil dries out around the roots the palm is trying to grow in a dry rock pile. Stones and sand are great for desert palms and for places where the ground is constantly wet like the U.K. or in the floodplains of the the SE U.S. Slow release fertilizer will continue to release once activated and will accumulate locally in dry soil. Along comes a heavy rain or you decide to water heavily and the fertilizer in the soil along with the nutrients in compost travel throughout the soils and wash over the dry roots in the stones and burn them up with excess nutrients and salt. It's like you don't eat for a week and then dine on 21 meals at one sitting to catch up. You will be one very sick or dead fellow!

To remedy the situation you want to increase the moisture level in the soil both around and beneath the palm to the point of flushing the excess fertilizer beneath the palm and diluting the salt buildup. If you can run a hose to it I would turn the water down low and let it seep in good for 2-4 hours every other day for the next week. Your 7 day weather forecast looks good to do this before the nights produce hard freezes. Don't overly stress the palm by cutting off dead or dying leaves.

You can follow my advice or not, but I have helped folks in similar situations including a fellow who mistakenly overdosed his Sonoran palmettos with boron and the end result was one inch of leaf tip burn. I believe in correcting planting mistakes, nutrient deficiencies, and maladies quickly and not waiting for help from mother nature, but that's just me. LOL

[lucky1]

Hi Steve,

Erik's been working hard to amend his heavy clay soil with compost, etc.
And when this gorgeous palm came along, rather than sitting it into a hole that doesn't drain water for TWO days, felt the gravel would at least take the water away from the root zone...a bit.

Glad to have you aboard.
US? Canada? or?

Barb

[Stevea07]

Barb, I am in NW Alabama surrounded by 3000 palms. (not joking)

Sabal palmettos love water! I have even seen massive specimens growing in slow moving streams.

[canadianplant]

Would the soil be all that different in oaklahoma and up in northern alabama?

[Stevea07]

We both have clay soil. The soil in Oklahoma City is a little higher in pH but I mix dolomite into my soil to raise the pH level and add calcium and magnesium at the same time.

[TerdalFarm]

Steve,
thanks!
I'm busy digging up a few more plants and building a palm hut for the C. radicalis before another freeze tonight.
I'll try to catch up this evening. --Erik

[lucky1]

surrounded by 3000 palms

Sounds like heaven, Steve.
Hope you've got a digital camera...

[TerdalFarm]

I really appreciate all the help here.
I cannot figure out what the problem is. It is slowly progressing to the older leaves. The spears still look fine, so for winter I will protect them with heat tape (photo). I'll wrap with burlap and then bind the existing leaves with a nylon ratchet strap. Basically, I'm giving up on the existing leaves and hoping the growth bud and spears survive winter. I figure the odds are under 50%, but I have to try.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/k_ ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/TOmoD ... AG0351.jpg" height="640" width="383" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/terdalfarm/ ... ">November 2010</a></td></tr></table>

[Stevea07]

Erik,
You might not want to wrap heat tape directly around soft tissue like the new spear. Lots of folks have told me that the tape burns everything it comes into contact with, except hard wood.

[TerdalFarm]

Steve,
thanks.
There are many types of pipe heating tape. This brand (MD) does not get hot to the touch, so I think it is OK to be in direct contact with plant tissue. I used it that way last year and it worked well. That might be because I used it under cover so perhaps it did not "need" to get very hot, but I don't think so as I also use it on exposed PVC water pipes in my barn and it never feels hot to the touch yet keeps pipes from freezing even in very cold weather.
I guess basically I am treating a palm spear as a water pipe.
--Erik