Pindo palm in a 6a???

[Jova]

Hello. I just got back from a vacation in the Virginia Beach area, and I was surprised to see that they had some really nice pindo palms growing down there. I think that area is around 7b/8a. From what I've read, Pindo's aren't nearly as hardy as a trachy or a needle, but almost all of the trachys I saw down there had lots of leaf burn, and a good portion of them were completely defoliated, yet the pindos looked the best out of everything. Of course, this got me thinking something on the lines of: "well, my trachys seem to be doing about the same as theirs, but their pindos look great... so maybe I should plant a pindo!" So what do yall think? Is a pindo even worth giving a shot in 6a southern Indiana, or would I be wasting my time? Also, I'm not into huge extensive protection methods requiring additional heat... I usually just cover everything with leaf piles or some sort of non-heated enclosure. All info is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

[hardyjim]

Leaf pile would not be enough for these.
Some type of enclosure with heat to keep it out of the teens for the most part,
as they need to be kept intact from year to year, recovery speed would be(at best)
somewhere between a Sabal and a Trachy.
Butia's fall in the gray(as far as cold hardiness) area between Washys and Sabals/Trachys
but they are worth the effort!

[JackLord]

Hey Jova:

I am in 7b, although being 3 hours north of Virginia Beach, it is colder. I planted a Pindo last Spring on the south side of the house near the brick wall. A better spot within L'Etat Lord would be hard to find. I protected it over the winter with a caged filled with leaves. I think I did everything reasonably correct.

The Pindo is still alive, but took a helluva beating. The center is still very green, but the fonds look like they were hit with a gamma ray. Combination of dried brown and rotten looking dark green.

Assuming it pulls through, and I hope it will, my protection next winter is going to be more ambitious- mini greenhouse with lights or a small heater. I do not see any alternative. Growing Pindos above a solid Zone 8 is a chore IMHO. Not to say the effort is not worth it, but it is required.

Take that for what its worth. Go for it and good luck.

[TerdalFarm]

Jova,
Butia is gorgeous, and would make anyones short list of best-looking palms even if it was not cold hardy.
I chose my in-the-ground-since-2007 Butia as my avatar for a reason!
My local Home Depot is selling 15 gallon Butia for US$90 with a "cold hardy" sticker. Not true!
Here is what my small (1 gallon when purchased) Butia looks like after a Zone 7a winter with protection like you propose:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6G ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S7VBL ... GP1286.JPG" /></a>

Here is what they can look like after the kind of protection Jim suggests:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1J ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S7VBb ... GP1297.JPG" /></a>


This is what that protection looks like:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Cw ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_r-MvN4jW1sE/S3cnn ... GP1109.JPG" /></a>


So, my advice is to;
1) buy a Butia in a pot size of 15 gallons
2) plan a palm hut with electric heat for the winter.
--Erik

[lucky1]

Excellent reply Erik, good examples.

They're such a beautiful palm, the protection and the electric bill are worth it.
Barb

[TerdalFarm]

Barb,
thanks. I've appreciated your input over the past months.
The electric bill increase was so small as to not be noticeable. I don't think that is a reason to not use electric heat. To me, it is a reasonable as paying extra on the water bill to water plants during a Summer heat wave. --Erik

[lucky1]

How kind of you, Erik! Thks.

So, Jova, you're likely convinced it's possible with a bit of work and cost.
It'd be a shame to lose a beautiful specimen just as it's settling into its specially-selected spot.
Barb

[JackLord]

Erik:

What is your prognosis for the frazzled Butia? Is it going to make it? Mine looks like yours, only bigger. Should the fried fonds be pruned or should I leave it to nature?

[hardyjim]

Erik:

What is your prognosis for the frazzled Butia? Is it going to make it? Mine looks like yours, only bigger. Should the fried fonds be pruned or should I leave it to nature?

Leave anything green,trim the rest.

Nice post Erik.

[JackLord]

Thanks Jim.

[TerdalFarm]

Thanks, Jim is right! I've learned a lot from him. I'm going to construct a Jim-style hut this coming winter.
I did trim (two weeks ago) as Jim suggested. I've also given some prophylactic fungicide, although I don't see any sign of fungus. I've given some palm fertilizer and kept it watered. I am sure it will make it, as it always looks like this in April.
However, it seems to take all Summer to re-grow what it lost over the winter. This, it is not appreciably larger now than when planted.
For what it is worth (ref.: another thread), it is from seed from a N.C. parent.
The large one was bought from Home Depot and so is presumably from Florida or S. Texas. This was its first winter. It is already starting to grow, while the little one is not yet. I am sure it will, but it sure took a beating. Again.
So, not to belabor the point: #1 large plant; #2 palm hut and electric heat. Worth it. --Erik

[hardyjim]

[quote="TerdalFarm"] I'm going to construct a Jim-style hut this coming winter.






Remember most of my palms are almost dead


I think one like Bill's or Wxmans would make you proud.


I think this year I am going to insulate better and use a Thermocube in most of
my stuff.

There will be a few umbrella g-houses(probably)in the event we have a milder winter,
I would like just once(at least),to see how they would do with plenty of sun and warmth.

Wish I could find styrofoam containers the size of a trash can or a little smaller-that would make life simple

[Jova]

Thanks for all the replies folks! I've decided that the pindo isn't the palm for me. My ultimate objective is to grow palms that can survive in my climate with zero to minimal protection after they are well established. So far, the only one that I think fits the bill is the needle palm, but I'd love to hear about anything else that could work in a zone 6a without tons of protection after the first few years, because I have a tendency to get lazy about these things once the initial spark wears off:)

[gpenny]

I think another key when choosing location would be to plant with microclimate in mind. Planting near buildings (south and east facing) is usually the first think we think about, but planting near or under vegetation canopy is often overlooked (especially evergreens). Ever notice why corn on the outside edges of a field is usually smaller! (drying winds!). A "grove" of palms would offer a better microclimate than an individual speciman. I would definitely try!

[TerdalFarm]

Jova,
it is good to be honest with yourself! I think a failure about that kills lots of plants. I lose a lot of plants in the bed on the south side of the house because the hose won't reach so I have to water with buckets. On hot summer days I get lazy and don't do it enough. They die.
Good to hear about needles palms. I planted three and, as you said, hope to do without winter protection someday. The only one I know of around here, a small one at the Tulsa Zoo, was protected with a leaf enclosure. The main stem was killed but the side shoots are alive with ~50% leaf damage. Their Sabal minor look great with no winter protection at all.
Penny,
my tropical-themed garden is in the worst-possible microclimate: NW slope of a hill, with pasture (=no trees) all around so no block of strong winter winds. I plant as if I'm a half zone north of where I am. I even lost a small Photinia, and a golden bamboo was killed to the ground this winter. Those are throughly hardy around here--just not in my microclimate. So, thanks again for reminding us about the importance of microclimate.
--Erik

[gpenny]

Erik
Yeh, I guess that's why they call them the "Great Plains"! I think us people in the East take our trees for granted sometimes. Here in S.C. it's a perpetual battle to keep trees and shrubs from not taking over our yards. We would convert back to woodland in about 10 years if we left our yards alone. Never been to your area (SW Texas only) but I'll bet it's spectacular to see!

[TerdalFarm]

Penny,
as an ecologist I love it. We're on the ecotone of forest to the east and prairie to the west. It has been dynamic for millennia.
If you (or anyone else here!) want to visit, send me a PM. We are near major highways and have a guest room. Plus a pool surrounded by palms....
--Erik

[gpenny]

Erik
Ecologist huh? My graduate work was in Freshwater Ecology (undergraduate Marine Biology go figure!). Thanks for the invite. I too have the pool surrounded by palms but if you stay here you will have to sleep on the couch!!! (son and grandsons back with us). Since I "retired" in 2002 I haven't had time to leave the state (except Mexico). I started several other businesses that are literally 24/7. I long for the free time I had when "working for the man".