T. princeps seeds

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:21 am

Has anyone here paid the extremely high price for T. princeps seeds? I figure for what is being charged they better thrown in guarenteed germination, a back rub, and hardiness to zone 4!

Seriously though, I understand that the palms are inaccessible, but how is $2+ per seed a reasonable price? OR, is it that people are trying to make as much money as possible before the cultivated ones sown in the 90's begin to make seed? Is there a supplier or any interest in doing a bulk order from somewhere, that could reduce our costs (to $1 per seed!)?

Another thing, as with any 'new' Trachycarpus "species" I've heard rumors that princpes is as hardy or hardier than fortunei, any merit to that? Personally, I hope there is something to it, but it will likely end up being something like the 'Nainital', 'Bulgaria', 'Taylor' or 'Tesan' hardy Trachy's that turn out be the same or (maybe?) 2 fahrenheit hardier than 'normal'... Wow, I just reread this, am I getting pessimistic or what? Maybe someone should do a controlled experiment to see if there is any merit to the claims of palm hardiness (or post a link if it has been done).

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:53 am

Paul,
Two bucks a seeds seems pretty high! They have 1 gallon ones on ebay for 24.95 and up, there not giant but most likely there 3-4 years old or so, or at least 3-4 years old with our weather growing them. Might be worth a look for you. The guy there says there hardy to 5F like the others, they are one gorgeous palm though, I've been looking for a big one for myself.

Bill

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:09 pm

I have bought 2-3 from this guy,he offers the 24.95 one as a deal sometimes-It's the exact same palm he sells for 29.95 -$5

These are really great palms!
I have also heard from a few different sources that they are as hardy as Fortunei.
I have 3 and want to try one out eventually.They are to small right now.
They do seem to really enjoy heat and grow faster in hot humid weather,which makes me (?)it being more cold hardy but what the hey-Sabals and Needles love heat and are very hardy so their you go?
I almost lost both of mine over last winter due to complications with spraying for S-mites.
They are the most beautiful Trachy? My biggest one grew 5 new leaves last summer.both are recovering nicely and should return to their former glory+ next summer!

Paul you should check out Tesan,they are very interesting palms! Very stout at a young age like Takil.
Princeps takes on an appearance like Waggies at a young age,stout and with beautiful color

Heres a pic of my Princeps 9-29-08 -2 smaller ones to the right (-:

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -08001.jpg" border="0" alt="Princeps"></a>

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:58 pm

Hmmm. princeps at least has a different look to it. Plus, those pics from habitat are AMZAING... Like I said before, I'm not convinced that 'Tesan' is anything. I await the experiments that prove me wrong (and I hope they do!!!) I'm hoping that M@X can get me a few of the Italian 'takil' seeds, so they can be compared the the habitat 'takil'...

Maybe I should just splurge and buy some seed? Can't order via ebay since people are VERY hesitant to ship plants across the border (and it's illegal, not that it that that matters to me!). We should get something like the EU where it's not a problem to ship plants across the Canada/USA border. I'm

If no one is interested in splitting a wholesale order, I'll go in solo. I'm thinking Europlams (and I'll get T. geminisectus seed too??) has the best prices...

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:42 pm

Paul,
How many seeds do you plan on getting?

Bill

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:11 pm

Bill-
I'm looking right now at getting only packet sizes. Check out the prices at Europalms, they seem to have the best selection. T. princeps are 25 euro for 25 seeds (1 euro a seed), and geminisectus is 20 euro/25 seeds... If these are bought in bulk the prices are 70 euro/100 seeds for princeps (or only 625 euro for 1000) for geminisectus the price is 60 euro/100 seeds.
1 euro = 1.57 Canadian dollars, or 1.50 US dollars...

BILL MA · Post by **BILL MA** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Well I think we should get 1000!

I'll go in with you, how many were you thinking for yourself? There not really offering to good of saving from 100-1000 seeds.

Bill

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:56 pm

BILL MA wrote:Well I think we should get 1000! I'll go in with you, how many were you thinking for yourself? There not really offering to good of saving from 100-1000 seeds.

Bill

Bill,
I'll PM you, I'm not sure if it's going to be worthwhile....

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:59 pm

"Like I said before, I'm not convinced that 'Tesan' is anything".

Everytime I look at my Tesan I see something.

I think it's actually funny that people don't believe Garry about his palms.
He lives where they grow.
It's one thing to be skeptical,it's another to be skeptical just to be skeptical.
Why don't you try growing some,then you can comment on what you know,not what you don't.

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:31 am

Fair enough Jim. I've not grown 'tesan', and you're right that I should maintain an open mind, at least scientifically. What differences are there between a 'normal' fortunei and 'tesan'? I've seen Garry's pictures, and from people who have ordered it does sound like he's an honest guy... I'll retain my skepticism and await hardiness trials, and explain why I remain skeptical.

What explains the gigantism in the seeds? Polyploidy? An adaptation for faster establishement in colder climes? You say the growth is slower, more like fortunei var. wagnerianus, that does not sound like an adaptation for colder weather, maybe it's because the palm first sends down a deep tap-root?

I don't mean that these cultivar's are not worth growing, just that we should be skeptical about their identity. It's akin to many of the different 'species' now clumped into the Opuntia polyacantha complex (usually now grown with collection data given, maybe we should do this with Trachycarpus as well? Since I can see us soon having 10,000 palms with a range of characteristics, that are ALL being called 'tesan' or 'wisan'...) Sexual reproduciton certainly will increase variability. Trachycarpus has definate sexes and can not reproduce asexually (normally, though tissue culture SHOULD be possible). So that's another complicating factor in the selection and maintaince of a cultivar (we can't tell the mommy 'tesan' who to mate with, and even with controlled pollination there will still be mixing)... Since no collection information is given, no wild population information, and the triats used to differentiate these palms exists in the range of cultivated Trachycarpus fortunei, it's difficult for me to buy into the names... Certainly it appears that these are Trachy's bred toward some ultimate goal, and maybe are from seperate wild populations...

Anyway, I remain skeptical, but in the name of peace I'll say that I hope the plams do end up having some stable characters and greater cold tolerance! Greater cold tolerance being what will ultimately matter. Like I said, I've been burned before (Bulgaria, Taylor, Nanital, etc.)...

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:13 pm

I hear ya Paul
Everyone has a right to react(in their own way) to the bizarre qualities of these -Trachycarpus palms
Not sure if I said Tesan growth was slower? Did I,I don't recall.
Some of the things that are different about Tesan that I've noticed are-much more compact and smaller leaves and after a summer of growth they averaged about 4-5 leaves a piece,not bad for Trachys putting out their first fans over the winter -(2008)
As far as Garry saying they survived -4(F)-You know the Colorado springs tests well right? There are a lot of types of -4(F) windy non-windy under cover under leaf piles kept dry,kept wet-There is to much wiggle room in giving numbers without qualifying them-agreed? Look at the palms in Co.springs-that's a mountain climate,maybe where Tesan grows it is too?- there can be a big difference in -4(F) in Iowa and -4(F) Colorado.
One thing that is not discussed in stories of survival is the weather before and after-it's one thing for a palm to see -4 and the temp rebound above freezing for highs after that,it's another to see sub freezing temps for a week with -4 thrown in there.I don't know how seedlings survive cold in the wild.One of the things Max told me is Takil survived -20(C) that wiped out Fortunei-this is what he wrote-Jim, Takil is for sure " more cold tollerant " than Fortunei!!
Takils @ villa Beccari in Florence, survived -20c or more, in the terrific 1986 winter .All the Fortunei died in Florence!!
Paul as far as cold hardiness claims go(I have mentioned this before)the palms in Colorado(Fortunei,probably Naini tal Wagnerianus etc)survived -15(F) so saying Tesan survived -4(F) really isn't stretching any know cold tolerance.
The Mt.Tesan are the ones with the seeds as big(almost(-;)as blueberries,I thought I posted pics of them.I will see if I can find them and my Tesan -Fortunei comparison shots

Takil is the palm that needs to be tested( the way they tested the other palms -carbohydrate-sugar/water ratio ) like John(?) did in Co.springs-I don't think they had the real deal.
Would be cool to test Tesan too for that matter(-;

ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE IS GARRY LISTS THE PLAMS LIKE THIS
T.FORTUNEI cv TESAN
T.FORTUNEI cv MISAN
I like this because it looks to me like he is acknowledging that they are variants of Fortunei-right?

Tesan when I first got them 2-11-09
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09002.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan 2-12-09"></a>

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09001.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan"></a>

Look how fat the trunks are at around 18 month old from seed

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09006.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09006.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan("trunk")"></a>

Fortunei seedling

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09007.jpg" border="0" alt="T.fort(comparison)"></a>

COMPARISON- Fortunei (on right,obviously the leggy one)

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09004.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan"></a>

HOW MUCH THEY GREW 9-27-09 (I HAVE 2 PLANTED)

<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09012.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09012.jpg" border="0" alt="T.tesan"></a>

BONUS CREEPING MANIPUR TRUNK(I ALMOST LOST THIS ONE AND MY PRINCEPS)
<a href="http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09023.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... -09023.jpg" border="0" alt="Creeping habit/Manipur"></a>

When I first got my 6 seedlings they were beginning to put out divided leaves

turtile · Post by **turtile** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:45 pm

I'm ordering princeps from Garry this year ($1 a seed). I have a few Tesan seedlings.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:09 am

Turtile
I would be interested in seeing how yours turn out.
Are they the mountain form or cultivated?

turtile · Post by **turtile** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:48 pm

hardyjim wrote:Turtile
I would be interested in seeing how yours turn out.
Are they the mountain form or cultivated?

They were listed as Trachycarpus fortunei cv Tesan
(cultivar)

Paul Ont · Post by **Paul Ont** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:06 pm

turtile wrote:I'm ordering princeps from Garry this year ($1 a seed). I have a few Tesan seedlings.

The problem with ordering from Garry is that the quantity he wants you to buy the seeds is very large (and really, when you buy the seeds in bulk from another supplier the price is essentially the same)...

Remember, I am even skeptical that there is such thing as 'cultivars' in Trachycarpus, since unless you're collecting the seed from an isolated wild population (which he may be doing, I don't know) having plants that are completely reproducable in cultivation is a bit of a stretch... I would think that for a plant with sexes, a cultivar would have to be reproduced asexually (i.e. in culture) for it to be valid. Since there isn't any way to know for certain that any characteristics present in the parent will be present in the offspring. Unless someone can think of a way that I'm missing (maybe he manually pollinates every flower on the female palms)?
I am no longer working on taxonomy or molecular phylogenetics professionally (I've graduated and moved on to a new project, genetically modifying plants to discover the role of specific proteins) so maybe there is some piece of information that I'm missing. It's my damned training, I have to nit-pick every little thing! Sorry.

Victorian · Post by **Victorian** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:33 pm

I have been burned a few times on new palm species that were reportedly as hardy as T. fortunei. I have heard that T. princeps is quite hardy though. I have seedling that haven't been tested yet. I can tell you that it is by far the most finicky Trachycarpus to grow. Very succeptable to over watering and root decay, and they don't seem to like very low humidity. I only grow them because of their great appearance. One day I would like to cross it with T. wagnerianus.

hardyjim · Post by **hardyjim** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:39 pm

I also think WagxPrinceps would be cool.
Manipur and Nanus are not exactly easy to grow either,IME-
Princeps loves heat more than any other Trachy I have seen.

garryendson · Post by **garryendson** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:36 pm

From what I read on different forums, T.princeps is at least as hardy as T.fortunei or even more hardy when young.They are originally growing on the cliffs of 1600-2100m above the sea level, it is freezingly cold . As the locals told me there was heavy snow up to the knees in the stone gate area. It could be a hardy palm.
Plus, some more info supports the assumption as more people are growing them in USA or Europe.

PalmsNorth.com

T. princeps seeds

T. princeps seeds

I hear you Paul

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